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Genealogy

Is it possible to find an unknown great grandfather?

20 replies

Crockof · 11/04/2021 21:56

Everyone says my great grandfather is my grans grandfather, but her recollection makes this seem unlikely. How would I find out?

OP posts:
Saker · 13/04/2021 13:21

I don't fully understand what you are saying - but if you want to PM me some details, I can have a look for you.

contrary13 · 13/04/2021 13:59

I think what the OP is saying is that her grandmother remembers/suspects that a man other than the OP's great-grandfather, was her (the grandmother's) father. Whereas everyone else is "oh, yes; he's biologically your great-grandfather!".

@Crockof, you could try a DNA test (Ancestry have the biggest database) and see if other members of your great-grandfather's family - descent from siblings or cousins, perhaps - share your DNA. I think that's going to be the only way you'll definitively find out for certain.

My DNA linked up to solve a family mystery concerning my own maternal biological grandfather. My mother had grown up with a step-father (who was the best grandfather I could ever have hoped for), but knew that he was not her biological father. Her mother refused to acknowledge the fact that my grandfather had only been in my mother's life from the time she was 6 years old - but my mother's aunt and I had our suspicions as to the man who fathered her (she's very like him facially). It was only last year, though, that I worked up the courage to do the DNA test (my grandfather and the man suspected of being my biological grandfather had been dead for about 20 years by this point) and found that my great-aunt and I were right. Luckily for us, my biological grandfather was a lovely man who remained in our lives right up until his death, and knowing conclusively that he was her actual father closed a door for my mother. He was married with 3 young children at the time of my mother's birth - so I can understand why my grandmother wanted to keep it quiet.

Also, DNA conclusively found my step-grandfather's oldest sister. He and my grandmother's father were first cousins, so centimorgans of our DNA are the same. And one of my 3rd cousins was the grandson of a woman who was fostered out at birth as the oldest illegitimate child of my step-grandfather's mother (my grandmother's grandmother's youngest sister). We connected through Ancestry and my 3rd cousin says how healing its been for him to know one way or the other that she would have had a loving family of 7 younger siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles and a grandfather... had the foster family simply not absconded with her.

So, if you can, gather as many memories as you can of your grandmother's early life - and why she suspects that the man who helped raise her was not her biological father... and take a DNA test. Then try to link it to your "tree", through the data which you'll have access to.

Good luck - and like @Saker, I'm more than willing to help if you get stuck.

RaspberryCoulis · 13/04/2021 18:24

Agree DNA might answer any questions about this, depending on who else has tested. Have you got all the relevant paperwork/certificates?

Crockof · 13/04/2021 19:19

Thanks for your replies, I've been thinking about posting for ages and it was Dutch Courage that did it hence not being clear.

It's worse than above, rumour is that my great great grandfather (John) got my great gran (Rose) pregnant resulting in my gran (Sarah). No father listed on grans birth certificate.
I know it was a long time ago but Rose kept living with John and Sarah and when Rose married Sam and had more children John and Sarah continued to live with them but Sarah was introduced as a cousin. Rose died whilst I was small but my gran Sarah spoke so highly of John and so do Rose and Sam's children.

Only since my gran has died have the rumours come down to me (at the funeral of all places, no one seemed to care but its made me feel very odd inside) I don't have any of grans DNA, would having my mum (or me?) tested shed any light?

OP posts:
RaspberryCoulis · 13/04/2021 21:34

I'm confused. Was Rose John's daughter who he got pregnant?

If that's the case, then it complicates matters a bit. Usually you get half your DNA from your mum, half from your dad. If a dad has a baby with his own daughter, then the percentages are going to be different.

The best person to test will be your mum as she will have 50% of your gran's DNA, and 50% from her father. If she's not up for testing then you could definitely test yourself.

However, your results are all going to depend on who else in your family has tested. If nobody else has tested then you're only going to get very distant matches and no real answers.

Saker · 13/04/2021 21:41

Hi, I don't think that there would be any way of knowing this. I'm not trying to be obtuse but just checking that you are thinking that your great great grandfather might be the biological father of your great gran as well as having a child with her.

There is no way that taking a DNA sample from either you or your mum could tell this. As there is no father listed on the birth certificate, I don't think you could tell by any records either.

I wouldn't necessarily take any notice of rumours. It might just have been that your John was protective of his daughter and didn't want rumours being spread as to who the father was so people started to speculate other things.

Fkrkrodps · 13/04/2021 21:42

It’s possible but it’s also luck of the draw. I’m a member of many Facebook dna groups. Some people find answers quickly, whilst others have only distant matches. I’m trying to find my great grandfather. My parent dod a dna test and 4 years later, I’m still searching. I’d recommend testing with Ancestry, preferably your parent, then upload elsewhere. And join some Facebook groups. Best of luck.

Crockof · 13/04/2021 21:51

Raspberry Saker yes, turns out everyone connected think he raped his daughter. It makes me feel really weird, and very sad. I guess I hoped that dna could show that there was another person, even my mother thinks its more than a rumour.

OP posts:
Saker · 14/04/2021 07:36

I think if you could have tested your gran, you could have shown there was DNA from another person, but obviously your Mum will have DNA from her father as well anyway.
If you do DNA testing and get no matches, that wouldn't really tell you anything.
If you do get some matches I don't know enough about the DNA testing process to know whether you could pinpoint them to coming from that generation. Perhaps it would be worth reading up on the process to understand it fully. I think would be a long shot for it to definitely prove anything.
I'm sorry this is causing you stress and upset, it is a horrible thing if it happened.

RaspberryCoulis · 14/04/2021 08:03

That's right Saker. If gran was still alive, she'd have 50% DNA from her dad and 50% from her mother. Usually these percentages are from completely unrelated people. If your parents are closely genetically related, and share lots of DNA between each other, then they will still give 50% of their own DNA to their child but in many cases it will be the same DNA, if you see what I mean.

There is a tool on Gedmatch called "are my parents related" but you're a couple of generations on from that. All the people concerned are (presumably) long dead.

Agree that it is a horrible thing to have happened, and you might have to accept that you will just never know for sure one way or the other.

expectopelargonium · 14/04/2021 23:30

I have an ancestor Fred on whose marriage certificate it gives the name of a father. However his birth certificate has no father on it, and shows his mum as Sarah, who was unmarried when she had him.

Sarah's father is George, and it is that George who is named as Fred's father on his marriage certificate. My suspicion is that he used that name to save face because he didn't know who his real father was, so gave his gradad's name instead.

I don't believe that Fred was the result of incest.

Perhaps something similar happened to your ancestor.

RaspberryCoulis · 15/04/2021 07:49

Agree that there are lots of possibilities, I have definitely found over time that a lot of family stories are just stories and really not based in fact. Illegitimacy was very shameful for a lot of families.

MissingInActon · 20/04/2021 01:10

This all sounds very upsetting. I discovered something similar in my family tree (an uncle and niece in my case) and it made me feel really uncomfortable, even though it was further in the past and I didn't know any of the people concerned. It sounds more recent for you, and must have been a huge shock.

I'm no expert, but I think it might be possible to learn something from the DNA, because the numbers indicating the strength of the DNA match will be larger than expected for anyone who's affected by that double hit of genes from the same man, if the story is true. And if it's not, you may get some ideas about who the real father was from any unexpected matches you make.

In my family, consanguinity seems to have led to some very early deaths from a genetic condition, so in your shoes I would want to know more, although it would be understandable if you decided to let sleeping dogs lie.

@Devlesko knows a lot about DNA testing. Let's see if this summons her to the thread! Smile

Cissyandflora · 20/04/2021 06:02

You’ve had good replies here OP. This is my main hobby and I spend hours researching every day. I can’t add anything because my thoughts have all been expressed by others above. Definitely worthwhile you doing a DNA test and your mother and anyone else who will do one though.

MissingInActon · 20/04/2021 09:19

Just wanted to add that you might find this thread interesting, OP: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/AMA/4067473-i-m-a-genetic-genealogist

NaToth · 26/04/2021 18:12

My DNA results have revealed that my grandad and his twin sister were the result of a harvest-time dalliance with a man from another village, and were not fathered by great grandma's husband.

All but one of my close matches on Ancestry, and my closest match on Gedmatch were people I had never heard of. They are all descendants of this man and his siblings.

Interesting times.

Crockof · 28/04/2021 19:25

Just wanted to say that I really appreciate all your replies, I have read them and I am considering them, I just find it difficult so need to process it all. Thanks

OP posts:
Decorhate · 28/04/2021 19:42

If a young girl got pregnant it was quite common for her parents to pretend that the baby was theirs. As people often got married quite young & had children over the space of 15-20 years it was easy to have the baby accepted as a younger sibling.

So perhaps John and his wife pretended that Sarah was their daughter rather than granddaughter and the story got muddled over the years?

Do you know if Rose’s mother was still alive when Sarah was born?

Crockof · 28/04/2021 20:14

@Decorhate

If a young girl got pregnant it was quite common for her parents to pretend that the baby was theirs. As people often got married quite young & had children over the space of 15-20 years it was easy to have the baby accepted as a younger sibling.

So perhaps John and his wife pretended that Sarah was their daughter rather than granddaughter and the story got muddled over the years?

Do you know if Rose’s mother was still alive when Sarah was born?

I could see this (it happened on the other side of my family) but Sarah was introduced as Rose's daughter until she met Sam. Rose's mum outlived her dad.
OP posts:
contrary13 · 06/05/2021 12:47

"Sarah was introduced as Rose's daughter until she met Sam."

It might well be, then, that the family were loathe to frighten Sam off by his girlfriend/wife having a daughter not only outside of wedlock but before him - so definitely not his child. As I mentioned above, my mother was 6 when my grandparents married - when she met and married my father, however, those first 6 years of her life were essentially airbrushed away for the sake of "respectability". Weirdly, though, my mother's grandfather was illegitimate and raised by his maternal aunt and grandfather in a small town - no one presumed them to be his parents.

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