Research sources suggestion *triggering*

[WeatherwaxOn]

I've been researching my late Dad's side of the family and have traced the family back to the 1800s.
In the mid/late 1800s were three deaths in the same family; father and two adult sons. Two were violent suicides and one an alleged accident.
The family lived in Barley and in Royston so some records in Cambs., and some in Herts.
I have death certs for all 3 - father 1867, sons 1873. However although all 3 required inquests the documents don't seem to exist for the two definite suicides. I have a transcript of the alleged accidental death.
The two suicides were in Cambs, and their archives don't have surviving inquest copies that date back this far.
I have looked in FindMyPast with no luck, but their coverage can be hazy/mistranscribed.
I was (gruesomely) hoping to find some more information from the time. Would old newspapers have carried info?

I have a short newspaper item about the accidental death which references the man's brother committing suicide 5 days previously in the next village, which came under Herts.
It seems that the brother who committed suicide in 1873 was in the workhouse, but again I can't seem to find anything.

The reason for my interest is that one of my uncles suffered badly with depression and I suspect it may be an inherent family trait.

but it seems strange that in the cases of both John & Joseph there was no indication that anything was amiss
Do you mean Benjamin not John? As wasn't John's death an accident? Everyone was concerned about Benjamin, as he was being watched in case he harmed himself. They just didn't think he was a suitable candidate for the lunatic asylum.

I love reading the old newspapers. I've found out so much about ancestors.

No, I do mean John. From the account of the inquest he was a competent handler if horses. To be accidentally trodden on (chest & head) by a horse that was in no way distressed whilst stabling it is unusua. Particularly as someone else was putting horses into the same stable at the same time and didn't hear anything - no shouting out/crying nor a horse whinnying or rearing up.

Benjamin is very interesting. He had got married the previous year to a widow living locally. I want to find more out about her. Did she go into the workhouse? Did she have any children with him (would have been time for one)? Did she stay in the area?

I feel sorry for John & Benjamin's mother. Their father had taken his own life, leaving her to raise a number of children single- handedly. Just a few years later, within 5 days if each other, two of her sons are dead too.

Yes, that is strange, but it would maybe be difficult to contrive a fatal accident in that way if he had wanted to. We also don't know for sure that the other man was nearby when the accident actually happened.

I think that it was odd that the horse trod on him if he had just had a fit and fallen there though. I thought it was more likely that he was kicked by the horse. So many questions, but I guess we'll never know.

Yes, awful for the mother.
leaving her to raise a number of children single- handedly
Were they not grown up by then?

It doesn't mention that Benjamin had any children in the article, and it probably would have. But of course she might have been pregnant.

The inquest contained a statement from a colleague of John's who went to the stables with him, though. So he'd have seen or heard any rearing up or shouting. He and John were stabling 4 horses.

I haven’t read the report, Op, but are you suggesting that John’s death wasn’t an accident?

Yes, I think it was deliberate, skeggy. He was a person experienced with handling horses. His brother had commited suicide 5 days previously and the inquest had just come out (I don't know if he attended). It seems very unlikely that it was accidental given that he had done the same thing time and time again without receiving any injury.
This was a small, four-stall stable.
What stands out to me is that the witness says that "Jackson not cry out!, and that at the time, the horse was tied up: "The horse was standing quite quiet", "I had not heard the horses kicking about"
Seems very strange to me.

I don't know, if he was kicked in the head, he perhaps wouldn't be able to cry out. Or if he had a sudden fit, and the horse was upset and stood back on him. Or perhaps he was a bit careless, because he'd been spending time comforting his mum, he'd got lots of children, and he'd been working long hours.

Is there any evidence to suggest he was particularly close to his brother? He had his own well-established family, and the newspaper article doesn't mention anything about his state of mind suggesting suicide. Meanwhile, he knew his brother had been unwell for a while, so it wasn't so unexpected, although upsetting.

Accidents with horses aren't so uncommon, even with those who are experienced. I think it would be difficult to get yourself injured by a horse and be sure you would die. It'd be more likely you'd be injured and off work.

I just can’t imagine how he could have deliberately made it happen!

It'd be more likely you'd be injured and off work.
I agree. It sounds more likely to cause injury or disability than death.

He might have just misjudged the horse's behaviour - if he was grieving for his brother, that could easily have meant he wasn't quite performing as usual.

Thanks for all the suggestions and considerations. Maybe I was being naiive about John. Your suggestion makes perfect sense, EBear

I may have to see if I can find anything else out about Benjamin, and recheck the marriage info I found. It seems as though his mental problems came on very quickly, if he was married in 1872 and then put in the workhouse (no asylum locally) the following year.

@WeatherwaxOn out of interest, which farm / stables was he working at? I have family who were from barley too

Pure guesswork, but I'd wonder if John was drunk. Did you say he died on the day of the inquest into Benjamin's death? Perhaps it was the funeral too.

I keep thinking about the mode of suicide. It seems floridly, unnecessarily violent, and was used by both men. What did they do for a living @WeatherwaxOn? I'm wondering if they were used to, say, slaughtering animals in that way and it was the only thing they knew would be effective. You've got to think Benjamin would have been appalled when his father did it, and yet only a couple of years later he goes and does exactly the same thing. There's a school of thought that psychosis can be triggered by microbial diseases that people working with animals might have been more exposed to. (I can't quite remember but off the top of my head I think anthrax is one.) Might something like that be a contributory factor?

There's a school of thought that psychosis can be triggered by microbial diseases that people working with animals might have been more exposed to.
Toxoplasmosis?

Euro the inquest doesn't say the name of the stables but the witness James Jaspeed says they both worked for Samuel Baily and had been out ploughing in the morning.
I shall PM you with more info as I need to find it - and we can compare families! :)

Conquest no, John hadn't been drinking. The inquest covered that. I need to recheck the dates as I hadn't actually noted whether he died on the day of his brother's inquest. I know that their deaths were 5 days apart. Hadn't thought to check as I've only really picked this up again recently.
They were all agricultural workers although it sounds as though John was more like an Ostler.
The summary of Joseph's inquest suggests no previous problems - he had got up as usual and his wife suspected nothing amiss. May well be something in the contracting an illness via animals - I shall see if there is any way of finding out more details.

Same family, earlier generation. Anyone able to work out who the person is indicated?
Transcribed as "Javy" but that's not a name. There was a Jabez but I have his year of birth as 1812, though the 1841 census which is where this is taken from can be vague. I thought perhaps James, but it doesn't quite look right, the last letter does seem to be a Y.

There is a James on the 1851 census, born 1816 in Guilden Morden, which is where I know I had some family.

Conquest - Benjamin died 11/12/1873 and the inquest took place the following day, according to the newspaper report. There is no detail of who attended; it seems the original document is lost/destroyed (at least that is what the archivists I have contacted tell me).
John died on 16/12.

It was just a thought, that's all, as you felt it was odd he'd had an accident doing something he was so familiar with. But it sounds like his inquest ruled alcohol out of the equation from what you said upthread. So... not that then.

I had a good old look at your 'Javy' Jackson but it's a bit of a mystery, isn't it. Looking at the handwriting elsewhere by that enumerator, those really do seem to be the letters - that or 'Jary' but that's not a name either... There are some instances of both in old baptismal or burial records but when you look at the originals it's as likely to be a girl as a boy and seems to be a common mistranscription for 'Mary'. I couldn't find the address on the 1851 census for Gt Chishill and while there are some other Jacksons, none looked relevant. How frustrating.

You may find that putting it on the backburner for a few months is all that's needed. I don't know if online records are constantly being updated and augmented, but I can't count the number of times I've bashed my head against something without success, only to try again weeks later and it's just ... there.

Conquest yes, it was a strand well worth investigating. It does seem odd, however you approach it.

I wondered if Javy was an error meaning Mary, but would a woman have been listed as an Agricultural labourer? Like you I couldn't find any obvious matches but I need to check births & deaths to see if I can shed any light...
This has been one of the easier families to trace, although the records are patchy going back past Joseph's parents.

I was trying to find other relatives (different family line altogether) on the 1911 census, and they are not there. It looks as though some entries for certain streets are missing (as in you get no's 1-12 then 15,16,18,22,23,24...) and despite looking for myriad variations of their names, I can't find them. I suppose I'll have to wait for the 1921 records to be released and see if that throws up any information.
Having said that, there are a LOT of errors in the 1911 transcription so if their names are all wrong AND their street mistranscribed, it's going to take me another 10 years to work through!

Yes, I agree, a lot of transcription errors. Do you have access to the 1939 register? That can help to locate people because you can also use their actual birthday as a search term, unlike all the other censuses and the bmd, which you can then cross reference with locales or marriage records etc.

I can't wait for the 1921 census to come out!

^Yes. I have tracked them all through but they seemed to flit about; at one point they were working/living in the Elysian Mission, but the children seem to have been born in various places in the approximate area. In this case, it's just curiosity and to try to make sure there weren't any other siblings I was unaware of, and to track a person's employment history.

I do love a bit of detective work using the old records :)

Just a thought, but your 'Javy' might be 'Jory', @WeatherwaxOn - it's an old Cornish name. Given copperplate cursive... it's tricky to decipher sometimes. So an 'a' might be an 'o', a 'v' may well be an 'r'...