cloud hosting and applications

[IShallWearMidnight]

asking here for some help so I don't sound such an idiot when I speak to the companies .

If i have a virtual server and put my website on it, that's quite straightforward to actually do, just upload the file(s) which the website builder gives me. But how do I upload a programme? Do I need to sort something out so that the programme comes in as part of the website (so a web address like mywebsite.com/application) which then takes me to the front page of the application with logins and stuff?

Can a non-techy do it, or do I need to get someone who knows what they are doing to set it up for me? I need two applications on there (to let me work remotely), one of them will be really helpful (as they want me to buy the software ); the other one is less so, but I think I do actually need to know what I'm talking about in advance, so that I can ask the right questions!

I'm looking at Webfusion for the virtual server if that makes any difference, they seem quite good, and i do need quite a lot of capacity, which some of the cheaper ones don't offer.

"But how do I upload a programme?"

That your server is cloud based should be pretty irrelevant. As far as you're concerned you get a computer that you remotely connect to and that's that.

So this depends entirely on the application and there isn't going to be a standard answer.

Some applications will come with a brilliant installer that will just take care of everything for you. Some might come with little more than lots of code and a badly written set of instructions for getting it running.

So that, I think, becomes your first question, how do you install these companies software?

umm, I bung the disc into the slot and keep clicking Yes and I agree until the thing works .

I have one of the programmes installed on my desktop and had to look at the instructions as it was slightly more complicated than that though, but not excessively. The other I haven't bought yet, btu I would expect it to be similar. Is it as straightforward as changing the destination details in the installation process then (so not drive C:, but server address)?

So I need to start thinking about the server as being like another computer which I'm linked to then? And I can install stuff on it in the same way as I do on this one?

My biggest issue is that I'm visualising a big empty space, and I can't quite see how to get the stuff I need to be accessible. Presumably there's some kind of front page to my space (actually that would be the hosting companies dashboard thing, wouldn't it?).

"Is it as straightforward as changing the destination details in the installation process then (so not drive C:, but server address)"

No, well probably no.

More than likely you would actually want to run the installer on the server as it will set up various things on the machine the installer is running on and not just copy the files to a certain place.

Although that said some installers do quite literally just copy a bunch of files, so in theory you could just put the address of another machine, if you can get at it directly from your computer, which isn't a given.

If you're dealing with Windows most installers will be of the first type, they need to be run on the machine that will run the software. The second type is more common on Linux boxes.

The typical sort of thing you would do is this....

1. Convert the CD/DVD into an ISO image or copy all of the files off of the disk into a zip file.
2. Connect to the remote server and upload the ISO or zip file. The method of file transfer will vary, some means of connection might give you access to your local drives, others will require you to FTP the files onto the server.
3. Either mount the ISO image as a virtual CD/DVD or unzip the files into a folder.
4. Run the installer program as you would on your own machine.

"So I need to start thinking about the server as being like another computer which I'm linked to then? And I can install stuff on it in the same way as I do on this one?"

Cross post :) That's what I just replied with. Yes, you will probably just think of your virtual server like you would any other computer.

"I can't quite see how to get the stuff I need to be accessible. Presumably there's some kind of front page to my space"

That's down to the hosting company. Some companies might give you a web page that gives you access to the server, others might tell you to use one type of remote desktop software or another.

With the remote desktop software quite literally imagine your computers desktop, and on that is a window which is showing the desktop of the remote machine. So you click into that window and then it's just like you're using that computer if it were sat right in front of you.

BadgersPaws, you are a star! I think I mostly get it now [fingers crossed]. I know that both applications need windows rather than linux, which is causing me some difficulties as the people I was going to "sublet" some server space from have a company to manage their stuff, so I could have piggybacked onto that, but they only support linux stuff apparently, so I'm back to trying to sort it out myself (with help from MN ).

"I know that both applications need windows"

Check the versions, that sample company you mentioned use Windows Server 2008 R2 for example, and that might cause trouble for some software.

Hope that it all works out for you.

Er, there is something big missing from this picture. You can't just run any old software on a virtual server, it needs to be software which is designed to run as an internet service, accessed either through a web browser or a specific client program.

I can't imagine that any supplier of such software would expect an end-user to get involved in setting this up, so I think that this is not what you are talking about.

If this is just ordinary software that you could run on your own laptop, it is not possible to install it on an ordinary internet server. You could run it on a Windows Terminal Server instance but again this is not a consumer-level set up.

Most companies that produce software that works over the internet are quite happy to host it for you - that is how they make most of their money.

What is it that you want to use remotely?

Ah, just reread your post: "I have one of the programmes installed on my desktop"

I can pretty much guarantee that you won't be able to install it on a virtual server then.

Your best bet is probably to keep your home machine running and log in to it remotely using Windows Remote Desktop or perhaps a service like LogMeIn.com or PCanywhere.

Digita and (spit) Sage are the programmes I need. I know Digita can work like this, just waiting for them to come back to me with some more technical specifications for what's needed; Sage have their own online version, but I want Client Manager, not just Line 50, and they don't do that as an online option.

The point of using a virtual server is so that I don't need to leave a machine running all the time (either in the office or at home). I've talked to a compnay which will do me a virtual desktop, but that was £££ for the number of users I need (once the business moves to the next level then it's more cost-effective), so I'm looking at more DIY options.

Aarrgghhh, why is it so difficult!

"You can't just run any old software on a virtual server"

Yes you can, if it's a true virtual server. I write software and then deploy it onto all sorts of platforms, I've never hit a difference between a virtual and a physical machine. I've even had some of my physical machines virtualised and it can be an invisible process.

"it needs to be software which is designed to run as an internet service, accessed either through a web browser or a specific client program"

No. The software can be anything that meets that Operating System and hardware requirements.

However you will need some means of accessing it, so if it's not some sort of internet service then you will need remote desktop access to the machine, and that is what is provided by the sample hosting company given above.

"If this is just ordinary software that you could run on your own laptop, it is not possible to install it on an ordinary internet server"

Yes you can, as said above as long as it supports the spec of the virtual server.

The limitations are nothing to do with being virtual and nothing to do with being an "internet server". The limitations are connected with the Operating System they put on the Virtual Server and the method of access that they give you.

"Aarrgghhh, why is it so difficult!"

It's not :)

If I understand the company you've linked to they give you what will appear to be a complete Windows Server that you can access via a remote desktop and also via a web interface to do certain things.

So as long as the software you want to install runs on Windows Server 2008 R2 you should be fine.

If you're speaking with the software providers it's probably worth mentioning to them that you want to run their software on a virtual server, sometimes they can have very funny licensing rules that apply to virtual equipment.

The limitations are nothing to do with being virtual and nothing to do with being an "internet server". The limitations are connected with the Operating System they put on the Virtual Server and the method of access that they give you.

You're absolutely right, what I was trying to get over is that you can't just install a desktop application on a remote server (physical, virtual or cloud) and expect to be able to use it on your laptop while sitting in Starbucks.

Either the software needs to be designed to run as a server, accessed by either specific client software or a web interface, or the laptop and server both need to be running some kind of desktop virtualisation (in this instance, probably Microsoft Terminal Services).

AFAIK neither of these scenarios has solutions available within the consumer domain.

one says Windows Server 2008 with service pack 2; the other says Windows Server 2008. Does that mean they might not work with the R2 version?

AFAIK neither of these scenarios has solutions available within the consumer domain.

I may be behind the times here. That is a lot of technology to put in the average man in the street's hands for £15 a month.

Why not just install the software on your laptop?

cos there's two of us need to be able to access the client data, so although I'm getting a two user licence, I don't want multiple copies of files floating around, and not knowing which is the most recent version (been there, done that ). This seemed like the most cost-effective, least hassle option initially.

"You're absolutely right, what I was trying to get over is that you can't just install a desktop application on a remote server (physical, virtual or cloud) and expect to be able to use it on your laptop while sitting in Starbucks.

Either the software needs to be designed to run as a server, accessed by either specific client software or a web interface, or the laptop and server both need to be running some kind of desktop virtualisation (in this instance, probably Microsoft Terminal Services).

AFAIK neither of these scenarios has solutions available within the consumer domain."

Remote Desktop Connection, which has been a part of Windows since at least Windows XP, will do exactly this. As described above you quite literally get a window on your desktop in which the desktop of the server appears. You can then use the server as you would your local machine, you can even make the remote desktop full screen and it really will look and feel (well almost) like you're connected to that remote server.

And this sort of connection is exactly what the hosting company named above provide.

So yes you can sit in Starbucks and use the remote server from your laptop, if you've got a semi-decent network connection.

"I may be behind the times here. That is a lot of technology to put in the average man in the street's hands for £15 a month."

You are :) This company are quite literally giving you what will appear to be a full Windows Server for £15 a month. However you don't get much memory or disk space, so I guess they're hoping you'll like the service if not the performance and pay more for something a bit beefier.

"one says Windows Server 2008 with service pack 2; the other says Windows Server 2008. Does that mean they might not work with the R2 version?"

The order of releases was....
Windows Server 2008
Windows Server 2008 Service Pack 2 (There was no Service Pack 1)
Windows Server 2008 R2

So a reasonable question to both suppliers would be "does you software work on Windows Server 2008 R2?" Implicit in there is a question about 64-bit compatibility as Windows Server 2008 R2 is 64-bit only.

I understand.

For Digita I think you will need to run it in peer-to-peer mode which requires access to a Microsoft SQL Server database: check that the VPS will have this.

Sage Line 50 Client Manager I believe uses its own database.

(I am also an accountant )

mrA - that's why I told you what software it was - Digita tends to get blank looks outwith the tax community

Thanks for your help, both of you, I now have intelligent questions to ask. I wish it was £15 a month, I'm looking at the £35 a month option as a minimum .

"I wish it was £15 a month, I'm looking at the £35 a month option as a minimum"

What are the features that are making you select the more expensive one over the cheaper?

I think £35pm will only get you a Linux VPS - £40 for MS

They are damn quick though, I trialled a Linux one a while back so you might get away with a smaller one.

BadgersPaw - size - each programme needs 2MB of RAM, but i'm hoping to be able to get away with the guaranteed 3 MB as they say there is more if needed.

MrA, yes, sorry, it is the 39.99 Windows one.

You can get servers with applications already installed paying per use. Maybe that is the best and more comfortable solution for you. Little work and just paying according to the usage you give to the server. Several providers like rackspace, aws amazon or www.lunacloud.com