Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Gardening

Find tips and tricks to make your garden or allotment flourish on our Gardening forum.

What is this plant please?

22 replies

Novicegardenlady · 21/08/2021 14:44

I've tried Plant Snap to ID this plant but it told me it was a clematis but I'm a but sceptical about that.

Any ideas?? It's not flowered this year, kind of had buds that never quite made it. I think it needs a more shady spot but I want to know what it is before I go digging it up!

OP posts:
Novicegardenlady · 21/08/2021 14:48

And now with pic attached. Sorry

What is this plant please?
OP posts:
Umbra · 21/08/2021 14:49

Peony?

Novicegardenlady · 21/08/2021 15:08

I'm not sure because peonies like full sun and this one is frazzling in sun.

OP posts:
Originally · 21/08/2021 15:10

Eriocapitella hupehensis, Japanese anenome

Magpiecomplex · 21/08/2021 15:15

I agree, it's an anemone

Didiusfalco · 21/08/2021 15:17

It’s an anenome. The one in my garden looks just like that at the moment. Should flower pale pink soon.

Disneycharacter · 21/08/2021 15:22

If it is a Japanese anemone pull it up they are so invasive in the wrong place

MereDintofPandiculation · 21/08/2021 15:26

Japanese anemone. Wrong bud structure and leaf texture for paeony

MereDintofPandiculation · 21/08/2021 15:31

I can see where plant snap is coming from. Leaves have a clematis texture and shape and buds would be dead right. There are non-climbing clematis. Both clematis and Japanese anemone are in the same family, the buttercup family

LemonSwan · 21/08/2021 18:09

@Originally

Fucks sake, they have changed the name!?

WHYYYYyyyyyyyyy do they keep doing this.

BewareTheBeardedDragon · 21/08/2021 19:53

That one does look a sad specimen but in the right place and treated with caution they can be glorious. Mine thrive along my shady fence and flower for weeks on end. But they are also invasive af. I maintain a healthy population by removing almost all seedlings I spot in the springtime, and enough evade my notice to give a good show without colonising the whole garden Grin

MereDintofPandiculation · 21/08/2021 21:43

[quote LemonSwan]@Originally

Fucks sake, they have changed the name!?

WHYYYYyyyyyyyyy do they keep doing this.[/quote]
Because an advance in scientific knowledge shows that it doesn't fit into the family tree quite where they thought it did.

But I'm sure you knew this Grin

LemonSwan · 21/08/2021 23:03

Yes I did Mere Grin

Still dont think it is right! Even though I could never work out how to pronounce Anemone Blush

Until they have a unilateral global decision maker and a master list of name changes then I don't think everyone should willy nilly be changing them here and there and seeing whether any one bothers to adopt the changes.

The main purpose of latin naming system is not just to map the genetics/ sciencitifc origin of a plant - its other main purpose is unilateral naming so there is never any confusion about what someone is talking about, across regions, across countries etc etc.

You can tell its a big bugbear of mine. Still reeling over Aster let alone the recent Persicaria family Angry Blush

yamadori · 21/08/2021 23:55

@LemonSwan You might want to hang on to your hat then, because rosemary is no longer Rosemarinus officinalis, it is now apparently a salvia and will be know as Salvia rosemarinus. Confused Grin

LemonSwan · 22/08/2021 00:12

AHhhhhhhhhh Angry

And give it a decade and they will split up all the Salvias into Wood sages, Tender Sages, Hardy Woody sages, Naice sages and so on so forth.

It really boils my blood.

Its untenable!

Anyway I have stolen OPs thread - sorry Blush

I feel once I have lowered my blood pressure I may make a separate rant thread about this!

Keep a look out Grin

MereDintofPandiculation · 22/08/2021 08:38

@LemonSwan

Yes I did Mere Grin

Still dont think it is right! Even though I could never work out how to pronounce Anemone Blush

Until they have a unilateral global decision maker and a master list of name changes then I don't think everyone should willy nilly be changing them here and there and seeing whether any one bothers to adopt the changes.

The main purpose of latin naming system is not just to map the genetics/ sciencitifc origin of a plant - its other main purpose is unilateral naming so there is never any confusion about what someone is talking about, across regions, across countries etc etc.

You can tell its a big bugbear of mine. Still reeling over Aster let alone the recent Persicaria family Angry Blush

But it doesn’t work like that! It’s not “every one changing them willy-nilly”. It’s a very few taxonomists working on that particular group. Isn’t it better that a change should be made by a taxonomist working on that particular group, peer reviewed by others working on that group, rather than by a committee which can’t have the same knowledge about every group that it’s asked about?

There’s also the International Code for Nomenclature of algae, fungi and plants to set the basic rules.

Yes, there’s confusion while the different taxonomists argue about whether to accept the changes, but by the time they filter down to gardeners, the changes have been generally accepted.

I’d argue whether the main purpose is unilateral naming. Any old naming system could achieve that. The main purpose of the binomial system we have is that it reflects the evolutionary tree; if it weren’t for that, there’d be no need to change it.

And doesn’t everyone pronounce it “anenommy”? Grin

MereDintofPandiculation · 22/08/2021 08:40

It’s the new DNA methods that are the problem. Give it 20 years and it’ll have all calmed down a bit.

LemonSwan · 22/08/2021 12:49

Thank you for the reply @MereDintofPandiculation

Its good to talk to someone who seems to know the system to try to placate my blood pressure Grin

Fair enough its these seperate taxonomic working groups who are changing them. But the way I see it half of them want to join groups together and half of them want to rip them apart, others want to just take the whole group and rename it for the sake of it. I think they are biased in a way to making a 'discovery' and then a name change to recognise this discovery.

I still think there should be an international working group committee who oversees the work and approves/ declines it with a centralised list.

In reality its very frustrating.

Google has changed Anemone to Ericoblahblah but the RHS hasnt.

If I go on Beth Chattos half the poor Asters got left behind in Aster and that was years ago. I dont really see how thats justifiable. The only justification I can find is Golden Rods (previously Asters) were actually Solidagos. Well thats not difficult to agree with. I dont mind people moving a few things around. But why do we then need to split/change the whole of Aster?

And as for Rosemary, well I could have made a guess it wasnt far off the Salvia Family but do I really need a name change for that. Cant the scientific bunch just move Rosmarinus alongside Saliva in their family trees (which I am pretty sure it was already).

Its just very frustrating because there seems to be no consistent approach. So with Rosmarinus its a small group and it joined a humungous genus. With Aster the whole group got changed apart from a few crosses and their parent plants who people didnt want to deal with. With Persicaria, they had already moved the flowering clumping and/or groundcover ones from Polygonum, and then decided they wanted to split them into micro groups with genuses no bigger than the original Rosmarinus.

I hope the above made sense. In my head it does but its difficult to write because when I do, will you read it as the old persicarias or the new IYSWIM.

So yes I am fuming about the whole thing. The current system is a real mess in my eyes. Angry

And with Anemone - well I am from the South, trained in the North and ended up in the midlands. So I struggle with the accents/pronunciation and have no idea who is right Grin

MereDintofPandiculation · 22/08/2021 16:38

But the way I see it half of them want to join groups together and half of them want to rip them apart There have always been "lumpers" and "splitters". others want to just take the whole group and rename it for the sake of it. Yeah, but they're not allowed to do that. The ICN sees to that! The only way you can rename a whole group is if it's become evident that they don't belong to the the rest of the group - they're just too different, or they've descended from a different ancestor, or they're more closely related to something in a different group, for example.

There's rules about names - for example, each genus has a type species, which was the species originally used to define the genus. So if the genus is split, it's the group containing the type species that keeps the genus name (at least it is on the zoological side, and I think it's the same on the botanical side) even if that's the smallest group.

I still think it's better dealt with by discussion between the taxonomists studying the particular groups.

The trouble with viewing it all from the gardening side is a) the horticultural business is slow to change, much preferring to stick with known names, and it has a bias towards splitting - why sell one species when you could sell two? b) only a small proportion of each genus is actually in horticultural use, so any changes are more likely to seem arbitrary.

Aster seems to have been a hotch-potch of 600 species world wide. "According to molecular DNA studies, our native asters are more closely related to Solidago (goldenrods) and Erigeron (daisy fleabanes) species than the Eurasian asters." That seems fair enough. It's not all the asters that have moved, it's just the ones that didn't belong, even if they make up the bulk of what we are familiar with. There's 180 asters still in Aster.

I suppose it's what's always been happening - rue, wall rue, goats rue, meadow rue, so named because they all looked like each other, but now in completely different genera (and one is a fern) because we now know that similarity of leaf does not necessarily mean the plants are related. Now, with DNA, we're seeing that the physiological similarities which used to be all we could go on as recently as the 1980s aren't enough to be sure that plants are related.

Rosemary always was in the Salvia family - both Salvia and Rosmarinus were in Lamiaceae. It's the genus which has changed.
"To restate this more botanically: in a study published in 2017 (citation below) Bryan Drew and his coauthors compared DNA sequences in plants then classified in the genera Salvia, Rosmarinus, Dorystaechas, Meriandra, Perovskia and Zhumeria. The DNA showed all were equally related. The authors proposed putting all the plants into a single genus, Salvia. They made the case carefully in the paper: either the plants should all be Salvia or Salvia must be broken into several genera because it currently includes subgroups that cluster the way those five small named genera do. Breaking up Salvia would require new names for something over 700 plants. In contrast, by merging the five small genera into Salvia, a total of 15 species are being renamed. The other renamed species do not have much of a fan club, only rosemary's renaming has created a stir."

Salvia rosmarinus was first proposed for Rosemary in 1852, hence was the name chosen once Rosemary had to move.

And for further confusion, the Portuguese plant Rosmaninho is in fact a Lavender - the Portuguese lavender that looks rather like Lavendula stoechas (but I think is a different species). Rosemary is Alecrim.

I think the basic answer is there is an orderly underlying structure, but with exceptions possible if obeying the rules would create more mess than breaking them. I have a dim memory of reading a paper in the 60s proposing a breaking of the rules since to follow them would involve something of the magnitude moving "dog" out of Canis.

"An EMM on ee" But the tongue doesn't want to do it, hence the prevalence of "An ENemy" And not Annie Moan, which is how I think of it when I have to spell it Grin

MereDintofPandiculation · 22/08/2021 16:39

I don't expect that's done anything for your blood pressure Grin

LemonSwan · 22/08/2021 18:20

@MereDintofPandiculation

Well it has a bit actually Grin

I think if there was more info and explanations like you have made then not only does it explain the situation, it also helps you to remember it as you have some context.

I did start another thread to continue my whinge without disrupting OP.

I think would be useful for my fellow 'cranks' on the other post- if you approve I can copy post with reference to you?

MereDintofPandiculation · 22/08/2021 21:57

I think would be useful for my fellow 'cranks' on the other post- if you approve I can copy post with reference to you? Feel free. Make it clear it's being copied from another thread, as otherwise bits of it will seem something of a non sequitur.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page