The 2015 Allotment / Veg Patch Thread Part 2

[agoodbook]

the previous thread is just about full, - well done spotted so welcome to everyone interested in growing their own veg!

Previous thread is here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/gardening/2282529-The-2015-Allotment-Veg-Patch-Thread-its-here?msgid=53650520

The spotted zebra - I have clay just like yours in my allotment. I have been there yesterday doing the only thing I can think of to break it down. I am still clearing the site of weeds and grass, so after I have pulled these out and dug it over, I am standing up and jamming my hoe in again and again on the lumps, trying to break them up. Imagine a Pacific fisherman, standing on the edge of the beach withheld his spear, spearing fish as they swim next to him....that's me, spearing each clod over and over with my hoe...I expect people wonder what on earth I am doing...but I don't know how else to break down the big lumps! It kills my arms too!!
I am worried I won't be able to plant anything in it with big lumps, as I planted some pea seeds where I had broken it down as much as I could and added compost on top and mixed in a bit and hardly any have grown...I am quite disappointed! I think I will have to buy more compost, chuck it on top and plant in that? How else can you break up big clods of clay?

On the plus side I am working through but by bit of my new allotment. I don't know if I am doing it right at all. I am on my hands and knees, pulling out the grass and weeds, then digging it over with a hand fork, pulling out as many weeds as I find, then digging it over again with a big fork. Is this right? Am I making hard work for myself and should just dig it over? But then all the grass and weeds are much harder to get too?

I planted potatoes three weeks ago and they haven't come up yet, so I am worried that the earth was not fine enough for them. Will wait and see I suppose.
I have a few plants that I need to harden off before I put in the allotment..do I just stand them outside for an hour every day for a week and then extend the time? I have out a couple of tomato plants in my plastic grow house after being inside and I am not too sure if it's too cold for them or not?

Oh dear...I am scared if it out my seedlings outside they will all die!!!

Your seedlings will be ok - they get used to the outside world gradually, and you increase the time until they're out permanently.

I'm getting some plants out of the polytunnel today where they're too cosy and I'm wondering if it's a bit early to put out pumpkins? I've got broad beans, haricots, butternut, pumpkin, courgette, French beans, and they all look well grown enough.. we're in devon and its mild, although a more normal April temperature today being 11 degrees rather than 25!

So, pumpkin - out or not? Shall I leave them until next time?

Here's a photo of my fruit cage that I'm very proud of! We are struggling to come up with a design for a door (or just an overlapping flap) but no hurry yet as thers no fruit to protect from birds)

Pumpkins - in the middle of the UK they don't go out for at least another month. Don't know your last frost date for Devon but beware - for french beans inc haricots and all cucurbits; it is the wind that sometimes gets them so even when the last frost date has been and gone, a feisty wind can burn them and stunt their growth.

To harden stuff off, yes you can do the in out dance for a week, I gently brush my seedlings as they grow with my hand and I open the windows of the greenhouse and keep the door open so that the wind helps to get them hardened off. Then when they go in, I put a fine net over them until they are established and in for two weeks.

The in out dance.
Day - time out
1 - out for an hour
2 - out for 2 hours
3 - out for 4 hours
4 - out all day whilst you are at work
5 - out all day and brought in at 8pm
6 - out all day and brought in at bedtime
7 - out all day and all night

Peace - you don't need to dig up the grass for beds, you can do lazy beds or lasagna beds

Lazy beds

Lasagna gardening

Oh Pirates you sound just like me! I can identify with your spear fishing. I too have a similar technique, but no hoe. So I use my spade. I keep my foot on it, and I sort of push/pull/stamp onto the biggest lumps to bust them into smaller lumps. I pogo them. It's a good workout. Agree with more compost, that (ie bagged manure) it is easily my biggest allotment outlay. I will have to do as Shove suggests and ring round until I find a free or v cheap source.

No sign of my spuds yet either. But theyve not been in as long as yours. And the ground d they went in was barely dug. It was a wet swamp when I put them in, now it has a collection of hard lumps. Potatoes are meant to be tough, aren't they? Plus I have decided that if I have to fail at a crop, I'd like it to be them, as they are so cheap. I can't get emotional about a potato, I think.

I'm also removing weeds by hand. Well I think I have dug over as mush as I am going to now , so i am sort of ready to plant. But like you, I fear for my seedlings! In the beginning post of the last thread, I did day that I need to toughen up a bit this year, as last year -mmy first year growing, really - I cosseted my plants way too much, watered them too often, kept them in too long... Now I have kept to my word by totally scorching to death a tray of marigolds and another of kale and broccoli raab. Oops.

My yard long beans are looking rubbish. I had a sneaky peek and they have hardly any ra root growth. Should they have, do beans (i googled and they are a type of cow bean apparently ) have particularly shallow roots?

I'm wondering if they are recoverable. The leaves are yellowing and growth seems to have slowed. It's possible that they got done in by a wind as Alternative says. I k ow I grew hem early, as I read that they need an early start as they are slow to crop. Perhaps it was too early and they are doomed?

but I don't know how else to break down the big lumps! It kills my arms too!!

You kind of have to accept that it is going to take years to break down the clay! I rake it and use the rake tamped down on the top [hold it vertically and let it drop] to break mine up. My metal rake head is now curved through all the tamping I have done! But the best thing to do is to get it as level as you can, mulch mulch mulch and then plant through. I used to rake the large lumps to the sides and use them as an edge so that the water stayed on the surface to keep my plants watered. Unless you cover the whole patch with about 2-3 feet deep of manure for a winter, it is going to take years for the clay to break down. Mulches I use are cardboard, newspaper, hay, straw, sawdust, grass, and any partly composted material that is left after turning compost heaps that will take a while to break down. Mulching keeps the soil moist underneath and stops weeds from growing because it is very hard to dig weeds out when the clay is rock hard.

I was planting on my patch yesterday and where I have added sand it is alot more friable and easier to work - I don't use manure as we got caught with aminopyralid 4 years ago on our allotment and that meant we couldn't grow on it for 2 years...so if you do cover in manure please check your sources that that the feed hadn't been sprayed in the previous years. We might be able to pick up some manure from an organic farm this month which we will use to mulch everything we can as it really needs organic matter adding to it.

I choose the worst clay bits and put a compost bin on them - and leave it in situ for a summer and then when you move it to the next place, the soil is much improved and covered with a layer of compost. I also get in hay or straw or sawdust and mulch with those - last year I chose the worst clay bed and covered it in all the weeds all summer, and in hay all winter and we are just about to dig it over and remove the couch grass, and I am hoping that it is much improved organic matter wise.

Perhaps it was too early and they are doomed?

I don't even sow my beans until the start of May. I've grown hundreds of bean types and never got yard long beans to flourish so don't beat yourself up about it! Were they indoors or out? Any change in temps to cool conditions can stop beans in their tracks - they really are fussy buggers.

You've never got them to flourish? well, I shan't hold out my hopes then!
I sowed them and kept them all inside for a few weeks. Then half went (gradually) into the unheated outside grow house thing and half are still inside. They're all struggling, although the outsidey ones are worse. I have other beans, as yet u sown, so if these come to nought it won't be the end of the world, nor even the end of Zebra's Beans 2015!

Thanks again for all info including mulch info too. Does the straw, hay, sawdust not just blow away, or do you cover it with something else?

No it doesn't blow away - the worms eventually take it down.

Plus I water it once in situ.

Beans need the heat and also the sun - too early and even indoors, there is not enough sunlight and they grow all lanky.

[I am a rare bean saver - I rescue rare beans and get/swap them from all over the world. I then give them out to people to grow and save from themselves]...

ypirates perhaps you need a mattock?and thenthe rake technique sugfested aboce.
The tatties should also help. And lots nd lots of organic mayerial and sand.
Ime tatties take a while to break surface. Give them time.

Well I've been away for a week and this thread is already up to 9 pages! Good to hear how everyone else is getting on.

I'm also gardening on compacted clay. I have planted potatoes over the worst of it and also have put in a fair amount of compost manure and some sand. It will get better over time but you never really get rid of all those clods because that is what clay does. I'm also going to try planting green manure in the winter which will help a bit by adding in more plant matter.

Hoping to get over to our allotment later to see what's happening. The peas I planted at home in pots a week ago are up and the runner beans and French beans are showing signs too. Sweet corn isn't yet but it's only been about 9 days so still time.

Hi all. Can I join you here please? Amateur gardener here trying to sow from seed. Not having much success.

I've planted carrots and runner beans and they seem to be coming on fairly well. From two packs of tomato seeds though, only 3 have germinated. I planted them indoors about 6 weeks ago and they are still absolutely tiny. Only about 2 sets of leaves on each one.
I've also planted beetroot, spinach,spring onion and lettuce about a week ago outdoors. Nothings come up yet, and I know it's early but I'm worried the same thing will happen as did to my annuals flower seeds. From the 10 packs that I have sown, none have come up at all. :(
Not a single ruddy seedling.

Alternatives, that's great. I love that guy in the first video. I watched some of his other videos and learned from one that I can use an old window as a coldframe lid! :)
Good to know too that I can use the turf if I bury it deep enough, and it won't grow into a weedy bed of grass. I'm going to try that lasagne method. Thanks so much! We've just been given some old U shaped pallets by kindly friends, so I can use them to make 2 raised beds at least (or seating if I chicken out of that idea. I'm going to have a think.

All right if I join too? I'm on the other big gardening thread but feel a bit of a fraud, as I'm more interested in things I can eat, really!

My tomatoes have been a very mixed bag, I usually grow Sungold and Costeluto Fiorentino, but this year the darn things were so slow to appear that I crumbled and ordered some plants (a new-to-me variety) online wine may have been involved.

Since then the Sungold have almost all come up, plus about 7 of the others. So basically I'll have far more plants than I can handle. Pah.

Just sown beans indoors, but they're not through yet. Sweetcorn and leek-sowing imminent (also indoors). I usually grow cavolo Nero as well but I haven't thought about that yet!

Good Evening!
welcome to The Diet and Halsall -
Now TheDiet first - this needs serious thought, so sorry about the 20 questions! Have you ever sown seeds before ?
Did you use a seed or multipurpose compost. Seeds need even temperature, light ,and be damp, but not wet For example- I sow thinly in a plant pot, water and then pop a plastic bag over the top to keep it damp and sit it on my kitchen windowsill - most things will germinate in anything from 3-7 days that way. Only when they have 2 sets of true leaves do I even think of moving them .Could you be overwatering them , or are they somewhere too cold ?
Outdoors seeds are more at the mercy of the weather - depending on where you are , it is still very cold - the soil needs to be at least 6º for most seeds to think about germinating - I think it was WhoKnows who used a meat thermometer to check!, but rule of thumb is - if you wouldn't want to sit on it with a bare bum - its too cold!
Halsall - I think you will find lots of help and advice on here ! I have sown my sweetcorn, but no beans yet as I'm in Yorkshire, and its still too cold- they wont want planting out for at least a month here, so its too soon for me No hardship to buy plants though - even though I sow my own, I still browse....:)
well, this morning was digging new patch - not in spotted's league, but having had no rain for so long, there is now a crust on the soil which needs some serious welly .
But - first flower has appeared on a strawberry plant today :)

Halsall I share your concerns about too many tomatoes. My tomato attrition rate has been quite low so far. Of the 21 seeds sowed, 19 seedlings have emerged and been potted on this weekend. Give them another few weeks and all floor space in the conservatory will be lost to them!

Morning all! Welcome TheDiet and Halsall. Halsall are the Sungold's the little orange cherry tomatoes? I wanted some of those - I got a plant out of a mixed packet that I got free once and they were delicious! Finally found a garden centre that stocked them and they were £2.99 for 8 seeds! I was [shocked] and quickly put them back down again.

Re breaking up big clumps. I bash with the back of my garden fork. 'tis quite theraputic. DS has a good go too!

It was my birthday yesterday so I put my foot down and insisted on some gardening time! Dug over another chunk of the veggie patch and sowed parsnips, carrots and salad leaves. My mum thinks I'm putting things too close together - I've got 12" between each row, alternating rows of quick growing salad with slower growing roots. What do others think?

In non-veggie news I sneakily dog a new flower border when DH wasn't looking, and planted some shrubs my mum gave me for my birthday. My lovely MIL sent me loads of seed packets, and my friend gave me a dibber and seed tin so I've had a very garden-y birthday all round!

The garden is starting to race away already - which is great! The plants I put in last week are thriving already, and the broad beans are taking off nicely. The new sowing of peas and French beans in pots are already popping up their heads and the mangetout against one fence are heading skywards. The spinach in another windowbox is ready to start picking a few baby leaves for my salads this week

But the peas against the other fence are again showing no signs of life. I wouldn't mind but this fresh sowing was with absolutely fresh seed, just bought a new pack!! Grrrrr......

I see people mentioning sweetcorn - make sure you plant it out in blocks rather than rows, to help germination. So if you had 9 plants, plant out in 3 rows of 3 in a square, rather than 1 long line of 9. It really really helps!! But you'll probably still have ears that have some nice kernels but little gaps all along them with tiny yellow specks instead - that's fine as the fat juicy kernels are perfectly edible and well worth the trouble if you eat them fresh!!

Alternative - I am fascinated by your rare bean collection! How did you start? And how do you source new varieties?

I went to Harlow Carr last year and in their veg patch they had this magnificent thing - a black runner or climbing bean! It looked absolutely tremendous - really making the case for beans to be seen ornamentally. But I didn't write down the name of the variety because at that point I didn't have an allotment. When I say it was black, I mean that the outside of the pod was black, not the seeds inside.

I have bought some very cheap arches for my allotment to put down the central path between my raised beds, and I'm intending to grow a range of climbing and runner beans up there this summer. Nothing as exotic as your rare seeds, but a bit more adventurous than my old standby 'White lady'!! I am hoping to grow the black bean with some some with Lingua di Fuoco, and some fiery-coloured nasturtiums and call it my testament to the Sheffield steel industry!

Aah sungold. They are expensive because they are an F1 hybrid. Also, the varieties of the two parents are a mystery. If you save the seeds and grow them you get either huge yellow tomatoes or small black ones. Yes, we've done it. But the taste is so good that I usually buy two plants from a boot fair or a garden centre and from that, you can reroot the sideshoots to make new plants. I take one to our community garden to grow [last year it ended up being the biggest tomato] and I keep one at home. Gorgeous taste.

We started our redesign of the garden yesterday. We are changing the beds and crushed slate path combo to make a forest garden with one grass path down the middle. Phase one is to remove some slate and bring to the courtyard area, take up the weed fabric and plant those bits up. Phase two is to make sure the path is where it needs to go by subtle shifts in the route and phase three next spring is to take up all the rest of the slate and sow the new path. So yesterday we chose two areas, moved the slate up to the courtyard, himself sorted out moving the cornus to new positions and I had to dig up all the strawbs and re-level beds so that the old bed and the old path that is now bed, which was slightly lower than the bed, are the same level, and then to replant it all. We have designed it so that the new path winds down the garden rather than is straight, so I need to knock the corners off some of the old square beds to allow it to meander. And in some areas it needs widening as we will get a mower next year to keep it trimmed.

My mum thinks I'm putting things too close together - I've got 12" between each row

That's loads of space! I don't grow in rows I grow in blocks. I also put slow growing things spaced out, and interplant with shorter and quick crops. Say cabbages around 2 ft apart in a grid. Then a mix of beetroot, lettuce, spring onions etc can be planted around them. These will be harvested long before the cabbages need the space.

You get more for your money in blocks. In the diagram, a 1ft by 4ft row, you can put 12 plants. In the same area, 2ft by 2ft block, nearly three times that amount.

Alternative - I am fascinated by your rare bean collection! How did you start? And how do you source new varieties?

I am Canadian and veggie and so eat alot of beans during the winter. I noticed that people only ever grew green beans and so went on the campaign to grow beans for drying. One thing led to another and I ended up doing swaps with people from here and there and would take photos of the gorgeous beans for my blog. From there, people all over the world started contacting me about beans! I often get people wanting my rare beans and offering their rare ones and we swap maybe 25 of each.

Your black runner may well have been Blackpod from the Heritage Seed Library. Your arch will look fab with the climbing Borlotti. Nothing wrong with White Lady - I grow it myself.

Thanks Alternative. I think I will have to rethink my plot next year.

I've got parsnips, swede, carrots, beetroot and salad in rows with salad betwen them.

Brassicas, leeks, onions etc are in blocks.

How do you sow blocks for things that you direct sow like parsnips?

Thanks alternative. I shall rethink my plan for next year. My roots are in rows but everything else is in blocks.

How do you do blocks for things you direct sow like parsnips? Just sow a couple of seeds in each hole or something?

Oops. Didn't think the first post went through! Please ignore me