Rose experts ? Obelisk question

[hub2dee]

Bought a climber yesterday, already about 3 - 4 foot with blooms...

Does anyone know the correct way to train it through an obelisk ?

My fear is that wrapping the rose with string (to tighten all the stems), sliding the obelisk over it on top, undoing string and attempting to sprial the stems through the inside (v. difficult) means the plant is very dense in the middle, the stems are not (yet) interwoven through thr obelisk IYSWIM, and the plant will rot out in time as it will be very dense and remain wet in the centre.

Might it be better to plant to one side of the obelisk and train that way ?

FWIW, I also tried 'spreading' / disentangling the stems, so they fell about away from the centre of the plant and lowered the obelisk on top but I'm not convinced I'd get the obelisk to reach the ground as the initial stems breaking from the main graft get in the way !

Long shot and rather detailed, I know... but are there any rose nuts on MN ????

I'm not a rose expert, but I'm pretty sure the advice is to prune the plant quite hard when you plant it. This will also help you to begin training the stems suitably for the obelisk.

It may seem as if you've spent money needlessly on a well-developed plant but the root is well-developed also and it will soon grow again.

I will go and look in one of my gardening books and post again in a minute.

Thanks anorak.

cut the blooms off my loverly plant ??????

Nooooooooooooooo !

(Though can follow your logic).

Okay! Rest easy! You don't have to cut off the blooms.

I've just consulted my RHS encyclopaedia so you can assume the advice is right.

"Almost all newly planted roses should be pruned hard to encourage the development of vigorous roots and shoot systems. Climbing roses are the exception to this rule - give them only a light, cosmetic pruning in the first year to remove any weak, dead or damaged shoots."

It goes on to explain that climbing roses should not be pruned much for the first couple of years except for the above reasons, but they should be trained (ie wound round or threaded through your obelisk). The stems are more flexible than those of other rose types and it should be easier to bend them without damaging them.

"Climbing roses or ramblers may be trained up pillars, arches or pergolas. Twist the main shoots around the uprights to encourage flowering shoots to form low down. Carefully train the shoots in the direction of their natural growth before they have matured and hardened. This is vital for climbers that have stiff, semi-rigid shoots. Tie them in using twine or plastic rose ties; these are easy to undo when pruning or to loosen as the shoots develop. Once the main shoots reach the top of the support, regularly prune them to keep the rose within bounds. An excess of overlong side shoots may spoil the appearance of a pillar rose, but a little additional pruning soon remedies this. Cut sideshoots back to three or four buds or by about 6" in the spring."

So it does seem that it is best to train the plant up the outside of the obelisk. It also suggested improving the soil before planting, which will help prevent the kind of waterlogging that you fear will rot the plant. It sounds as if your best plan would be the spreading the shoots out on the ground and winding around the outside of the base. Have you planted it yet? Wouldn't it be lower once you've planted it and then possibly those main stems would be under the sides of the obelisk?

I think it would be possible to plant it to one side and train it around the obelisk if you really can't fit it in from underneath. The book talks about doing this to train roses around solid objects like pillars and trees, so it must be a workable possibility. It's all in the early training while the stems are flexible.

Many thanks.

I'm not so much worried about water-logged soil as creating a nice breeding ground for fungus if a very dense / squished shrub (ie. in centre of obelisk) spends all its life damp IYSWIM. Have ammended soil.

Hmmm... outside of the obelisk then... Yes, I have planted it, but can get it up in a jiffy. Phnargh phnargh. One thing I hadn't done (not sure if I'm supposed to, actually) is position the graft several inches below soil level. (In the pot it is several above at the mo). That might give me the extra space I need to work on the lower canes...

Pillar training I can understand (the plant must be put in beside the support !) but this obelisk malarkey has got me scratching my head...

hmmm..

It says here that the bud union should be about an inch below the soil level.

It also recommends planting roses intended to climb up a wall at a 45 degree angle pointing towards the wall, so if you do decide to plant it next to the obelisk that might be a good plan.

Good point...

OK... out into the rain.

Sad thing is, we put it in by floodlight last night at 10 o'clock, LOL ! What a waste of effort ! (Garden being inspected in local competition today. I think there is approximately zero chance of top dog, but we might scrape a third with a bit of luck... still have sizable patches requring planting etc.).

Don't forget to report back here then! Good luck.

They aren't half prickly, eh.

OK, my magnificent bush has been teased and spiralled and wound and tied in.

I tried to keep the growth as lateral as possible to encourage good blooming but what was a rather fine looking bush looks much less fine now it has been trained (ie was 4 foot high, lots of blooms, now more like 2 ft IYSWIM... but I know it will flower well and grow strongly over the next couple of years to fill the obelisk.

Well done!

Please post to say how the competition goes.

If anyone ever discovers this thread through google, [train rose through obelisk or weave rose for pillar], my advice would be as follows:

Place obelisk in exact required position. Mark out edge of lowest support.

Dig hole for rose so graft will lie as close as humanly possible to the edge of support, whilst still allowing you to position support without killing yourself or the rose bush when you lower it into position.

Erm... lower obelisk into position.

Take canes closest to where obelisk touches bush, and start training these ones first, tieing in where necessary.

(Check with a pro, but...) Keep canes as lateral as possible for best blooms. Weave in and out, leaving any buds as close to the edge of the obelisk as possible.

Work your way to either side of the 'centre' of the bush, taking canes left / right / up as possible / needed.

Admire handiwork.

Wait.

Oh dear, that didn't go very well. LOL.

Judge was part way through some kind of landscaping / horticultural course (ie. not a working pro) and I get the impression she didn't really like our style of garden ! (Maybe that is the impression judges must convey !) Not sure how experienced she was... hmmm. Oh well, wait and see !

She found some small pots of primula vialii which we'd only bought yesterday tucked in the foilage (not planted) pmsl.

Better luck next year when your climbing rose has reached the top of the obelisk, your primulas are properly naturalized, and maybe you have a better judge too!

Oh, and I've done the top of my hedges, picked out the scale-infected yellowing leaves on the holly, filled the remaining gaps, not scorched the lawn with too much fertiliser etc. etc. etc.

Better get started now then. It isn't quite dark yet. Wheres yer wellies?

Slave driver. Worse than dw.

You still here?

Yes, eating a nice haloumi salad. I think halloumi has one l but I'm not sure. It's very nice though.

Those hedges won't cut themselves you know

It's only the tippy tops. The sides have already been hacked back a few weeks ago (they look shite at the mo sadly).

Thing is, I'd need some system to pick up the clippings as I really can't be bothered hauling my huge ass through my rather narrow beds, LOL.