Choosing A levels for Classics degree: Ancient History and Classics Civ overlap?

[SelkieSeal]

DS is starting to consider A levels - he is currently doing GCSEs in the usual English/Maths/Science plus History, Geography, Classical Civilisation, Latin, and Ancient Greek. He is pretty set on doing something Classics related at degree level.

He wants to do both Ancient History and Classical Civilisation A levels plus either Politics, Economics, or English Lit.

I'm totally ignorant as didn't get further than GCSEs myself! But it feels like there's little difference between Ancient History and Classic Civ A levels and he might be better off doing one of them, plus 2 others.

Any suggestions on how to steer him?

(he is not conventionally educated due to his additional needs, so he really can choose whatever he wants to study at A Level)

If he wants to do a classics degree he should take one of his classical languages to A level.

If you mean a class civ degree, dd applied for this and they told us at the open day that pretty much any A levels were fine. This was Warwick btw.

We also went to an offer holder day for classics/class civ and all the classics applicants were taking Greek or Latin A level.

For class civ (at that uni) you had to take an ancient language module but no need to have studied it before.

If you are concerned about overlap (tho no one minds it with maths and physics) the. look at the specs.

BTW dd ended up studying Eng lit at uni.

Ancient history and class civ a levels do overlap.

i’m not in a position to comment on whether this is a good or bad thing

physics and maths also overlap.

Oh yes, if he has Latin or Greek at gcse he should take to a level.

Too much overlap in those A levels. I would suggest one of those, either Latin or Ancient Greek (or even both) and whatever else he wants to do as his third or fourth A level.

I used to work in FE. Classical Civilisation and Ancient History do tend to cover the same ground - one fro a literature angle (CC) and the other from historical sources IAH). If they are both with the same exam board generally students are excluded from do both at A level. If they are separate boards it is possible to take both but we did not advise students did this except in exceptional circumstances

Just to reiterate what others have said, a Classics degree will require either Latin or Ancient Greek. Some unis offer Classics with intensive language tuition in year one, but that is majorly difficult. You would be expected to be at Alevel standard at the end of the year. An ancient language would keep his options when it came to degree choice.

Ideally Latin, Greek and either AH or CC.

The unis which offer to students with no Latin or Greek ALevel are trying to widen participation for students from schools which don't offer those subjects. As your DS has already done GCSE and can do any subject for A level that would not apply. He might still get in somewhere but he's reducing his options and chances.

DD did classics at St Andrews - her A levels were Class Civ, Latin and English Lit.

Classics at Oxford has a course for students with GCSE in Greek or Latin including intensive language study in year 1 and the opportunity to take the other language forward in year 3 and 4. However, this is mainly for students who have picked up a GCSE in sixth form - the intensive language study runs from GCSE forwards and is challenging if you have had two years away from the language after Year 11. The entrance exam (language aptitude) also rely heavily on understanding classical language structures, so a bit tricky if rusty. It’s a good idea to take the language forward to A-level if possible.

Why doesn’t he want to do Latin or Greek at a-level? If he wants to do Classics, it will be hugely beneficial. Being able to read literature in the original language is just magical, if nothing else.

I meant to say btw @SelkieSeal that I did ancient Greek at A level. It was hard work for sure (more work than the other two, MFLs, put together) but overall I am glad I did it. It is quite special to be able to say that I have read the first two books of the Iliad in Greek. If he does want to take classics (rather than class civ, which you might mean) then it's a no brainer. Although actually it will need a lot of brain <see start of post>

I should have said in my OP, he was also considering Greek but was told by his current tutor that he didn't need to do it to A level. I will revisit this idea though.

@clary he says he wants to do Classics, not Class Civ. But tbf this may well change.

Thanks everyone for the advice, I think I understand a bit more now about the difference between the two and also what other options would be most helpful to him

I only had GCSE Greek when I went to university and it was very hard; the work load in the first year was intense because you basically end up learning it to A level standard at the same time as doing your first year at university. It was a lot.

I should have said in my OP, he was also considering Greek but was told by his current tutor that he didn't need to do it to A level

That’s poor advice if he is actually planning a classics degree. As I said, at DD's class civ/classics offer holder day at Warwick, there were not huge numbers of would-be classics students but as far as I could gather every one of them was doing Latin or Greek A level.

I mean you are going to study an ancient language at uni – you can choose between dropping it after GCSE and studying other things for two years; or errrrm continuing it at A level? Why would you not?

I find his choice of subjects odd. I would understand not picking Latin or Greek if you cannot access them or if he wants to keep his options open. For example, if he was undecided between Engineering, modern History or Classics, then I would suggest dropping Latin and Greek and doing Maths, Physics and History instead. However, that's clearly not the case here - his chosen alternative subjects very much point to Classical Civilisation.

Does he think it may be easier to get As in Ancient History and Classical Civilisation than Latin and Greek? If so, I understand his choice, but then he should probably rethink the degree. You can do a Classics degree without A-levels in Latin or Greek but it used to be the case that people without the languages had to catch up to A-level standard in an additional year at university, so he would then be doing at least "A-level" standard in one year. Right now he can do it over two years, which will be much easier and make uni easier. And cheaper, if it means he can go for a three year course instead of a four year course.

I know Oxford restructured their course recently so the above may no longer be the case - maybe they have now made it possible for ab initio / false beginner entrants to navigate through the degree with less language work. (I just don't know, something to check out.)

In any case, if he is certain he does not want to take Latin or Greek A-level then I would think about other subjects which he may be interested in which may open up more degree choices. He can apply to many degrees with his choices but he is also ruling out maths / finance / engineering / allied health professions / literature / geography degrees. That's fine if he is sure he is not interested.

Finally, I cannot resist two book recommendations for Latin:

1. LLPSI: Familia Romana (this will be very accessible to him now - just read, do not translate and do ignore the grammar exercises, they are not necessary)
2. LLPSI: Roma Aeterna (this is the second volume and he will find this extremely hard, this is probably slightly above A-level standard) The trick with these books is: if you get stuck, start again from the beginning, until you can read all the way through, just as you would English.

Another suggestion that he continues at least one classical language through to A-level if possible. Then he should do Classical Civ, and if only one language then he could do english / politics / philosophy as a third.

@SoftIce I've always wanted to learn Latin (had to choose between Latin and German at school, and I picked the latter) so I've just bought Familia Romana on the back of your recommendation. Thank you!

@DramaAlpaca I honestly think it is a really great book and it is also very popular in Latin self-study communities online. I read it 20 years after last doing Latin in secondary school, so I was a false beginner, but the grammar was still vaguely familiar to me and therefore I could just read the book without thinking about it. If you are completely new to Latin, I would recommend that you get a (small) grammar book as well (maybe "Latin to GCSE 1"). However it may not be necessary - you can try first with just reading. I think some people do - maybe google approaches on "Textkit Greek and Latin" forum.

The really important part is though: When it gets too difficult, do not give up, just start again from the beginning. You will be able to read further the second time, and eventually you will be able to read the whole book. You can then move on to the Latin Harry Potter books (!) so it gets you to a very good level.

There is a similar book for Greek as well ("Logos") which I actually got myself for Christmas but I find it harder - I have never studied Greek before. I can guess the noun cases because they are similar to Latin and I can also guess verb conjugations but I'm having trouble guessing verb tenses. So I think I need to follow my own advice and get a small grammar book.

@DramaAlpaca Forgot to say the most important thing: Have fun! I really hope you'll enjoy it!

Another one here who agrees if he has taken an ancient language at GCSE it’s going to raise some eyebrows if it’s dropped for A level if he’s serious about studying classics.

@SoftIce thank you!

The best advice for Classics is Latin , History and either a MFL, English Lit, or Classical Civilisation. History is just better overall prep but the Latin will be key to success. MFLs also demonstrate language ability. Classical Civilisation is the interest A level. There is the 4 year course at Cambridge for students with no Latin A level but they make it clear students must read the texts in the ancient Languages so not doing one is a huge mistake in many ways.

I agree with others, if he definitely wants to study classics, he should do both Latin and Greek. Otherwise he will possibly just be making things more difficult for himself at degree level, or restricting which options he is able to take.

Latin is arguably easier for an English speaker, but Greek texts are arguably more interesting - anyway it’s a shame to close off possibilities by not doing both languages.
Whereas you’re likely to be able to take ancient history modules whatever your A levels.

Ancient history and classical civ both an acceptable third option.

But he could also consider complementary subjects such as history, English literature, philosophy, religion or history of art if he wants a broader scope, especially if he can do any course he likes at A level.

Cambridge just ask for Latin. I’d go with that as required. Greek is good but extremely difficult to find in a state school. However evidence of starting Greek and reading Greek literature (translated) would help.