A levels for environmental science/geology

[myladyjane]

Dd was planning to do maths, chem and geography with a plan to do geology (or possibly Environmental Science) at uni. She has a passion for physical geography so geography very much her favourite choice.

just back from a 6th form interview and bit of a curve ball thrown in - if she really wants to do geology, take physics and chemistry, possibly not geography. This came from the Head who has a degree in Environmental Science.

dd is pretty strong academically, doing triple science and just got a 8/9 in her physics mock. So capable of the a level but hadn’t really entertained it before. She will research it more of course but she’d looked into quite a few uni courses already and this hadn’t jumped out at her so curious of any real life experiences.

Good post from @PerpetualOptimist - yes indeed, an Astar in geography is better than a B in physics. If she isn't enthused about physics then better to take something she loves – esp when that something is geography (counted as a science for all the unis I looked at and in fact for most unis, particularly for a subject like geology (rather than say medicine).

Unis I looked at don't ask for physics specifically to study geology but it's worth emailing a few admissions depts and asking the question. I agree btw that teachers (and I was a classroom teacher) often promote their own subject, understandably enough tbh.

If she took any of the A level combos she is looking at she would leave quite a few other doors open in uni terms – tho she should be aware that maths at a popular uni is probably not one of them unless she adds FM. Nothing wrong with maths A level on its own tho (DS2 took it) – it supports many science subjects down the line. As does chem.

I'm no expert on this but I think that it would be nice to keep the Geography A Level because it will be good to have an essay-subject in amongst whatever sciences she picks.

Does she have to do a University degree? Is there another way in e.g. apprenticeship?

I'm curious/nosy why PPs are saying Physics for environmental science, no critism. I'm a professional geophysicist without physics Alevel but made up for it in maths. For my degree we needed physics for flow laws (magma, sediment, fluids in porous media), a bit of astrophysics, some volcanology, seismology obviously, mechanics for structural geology, then the atomic physics/chemistry crossover for mineralogy and petrology. Most of that is differential equations, wave equation manipulation, mechanics and matrix algebra. I think the relevant maths was all covered by FM so only about half the physics Alevel would have been useful, whereas most of chemistry was. For ES, is physics rather a must if you don't do FM, or are you doing different stuff?

ETA: I was certain I wanted to study geology. If she's not 100% certain, choose what she enjoys and is good at, which sounds like geography.

@myladyjaneThe perfect subjects for Env Science are Biology, Maths and Geography. Look to see if Physics is ok instead of Biology. However jobs not around afterwards unless with a charity! (Generalisation but it’s hard!) Geology is different as it supports the building industry and it pays more. She should look at the best Geology degrees and consider A levels based on their requirements.

A school that maybe doesn’t offer geography is dreadful!

Environmental Engineering might be an idea - great combo is maths, physics or chemistry and Geography but Biology would be ok instead as it’s the first two that matter. Nottingham wants maths with either chemistry or physics. Birmingham does Env Eng and Geo Science so lots of avenues to consider but don’t follow what teachers say! They cannot know every course. What I can tell you is that grads who have done a solutions course, like engineering, are better placed to find jobs over those with Env Sci who work out what the problems are. A bit simplistic but there’s too many of the latter and we need the former - designing solutions.

My son did environmental sciences at Lancaster. He was required to do two A levels from the sciences/maths/geography. However, if you hadnt done maths or chemistry then you had to do special catch up classes in the first year. So I would say that maths and chemistry are the most important.

@pinkspeakers Not the case at Liverpool. Courses vary and obviously dc need to check up on this.

I’m a geologist, did natural sciences / earth science at university, then an industry focussed masters, and have worked as a geologist ever since.

Geography, chemistry and maths are excellent choices for a geology degree. Frankly, you can enter a geology degree with quite a range of different A levels, as they teach it from scratch, and just need you to be a good, curious scientist who loves the subject.

There are loads of different strands to geology, and people gravitate to the ones they most enjoy (or the ones they think will have the better career prospects!). I work with lots of geologists who are more at the geography side of things - they specialise in understanding ancient river systems, sand and mud deposition, development of carbonate systems (reefs, chalk etc). Others are geochemists, or rock quality specialists, looking in detail at the ancient fluids within the rocks, or how the rock grains have been affected by complex tectonic and burial histories. Others far more generalised. A lot of these will have an interest in geography (in a way, a lot of geology is basically historical geography). Chemistry is a hugely useful one too - understanding the chemical composition and alterations of minerals and the fluids within the rocks. Maths really really helps, though some geologists are famously rather terrible at maths.

Other geologists take a slightly more numerical approach, they may get interested in a more geophysical angle - how seismic waves move through the earth, calculating and understanding geophysical signals, large scale mantle and volcanic processes can end up in this area too. Maths will get you a long way here, but I think for this sort of thing, physics is a huge help to get into it. Physics is always a great thing to do - but there are whole massive areas of geology that certainly won’t need it, especially if you’ve kept maths up.

The sixth form tutor may well know plenty of geoscientists with physics, but there are absolutely loads without, and looking at uni requirements, it’s not at all necessary. Those who love physics will find it helpful, but those who love geography, chemistry etc will find those helpful too. You need a full range of backgrounds, one isn’t better than the other.

Finally, someone earlier made the extremely good point that geography is particularly useful here as it’s the only essay-ish subject on the list. This, I would say, is a massive advantage - take an a level that requires you to build up skills in constructing long answers in exams, coursework etc. I actually did English lit a level alongside maths, chemistry, physics, and honestly if it wasn’t for eng lit, I’d have found the essay-style geology questions in my uni exams and coursework FAR harder. You’ll be writing essays comparing the research of several people who have all investigated eg crystalline deposition in magma chambers, or development of clay minerals under pressure, etc etc, and you need to be comparing and contrasting, understanding papers, drawing conclusions, citing sources. Geography will be excellent training for this, more so than physics.

Also, on a different note, quite a few people would do a more generalised undergrad degree (eg geology) and then an environmental geoscience masters afterwards. That’s always an option. (Though more expensive).

Oh, also adding in - I took the natural sciences route rather than applying directly for geology. Maths chemistry geography wouldn’t get you on to the Cambridge natural sciences course to end up with earth sciences - they need two sciences as well as maths, and I don’t think geography counts for them as a science for this purpose, though other places I’ve seen does classify it more like this. So if Cambridge was a plan for Earth sciences, it wouldn’t work- but I think pretty much anywhere else she’d be fine to have either chemistry or physics.

eg Oxford says this:

We require all candidates to be studying (to A-Level or equivalent):
Mathematics
EITHER Chemistry OR Physics
This provides the best preparation for the course, and will form part of any offer of a place.
The most highly recommended additional A-Levels for Earth Sciences are:
Chemistry
Physics
Biology
Further Mathematics
Geology
Geography
Additional A-Level qualifications in any of these subjects are very helpful.

I think there are great masters available afterwards which are more specialist and dc can follow specific interests. For Engineering a masters is necessary for CEng qualification but it depends what career dc ultimately want.

Oxbridge supply a tiny minority of people working in this field. There’s no need to even think of going there because plenty of other universities are really good. However their advice on subjects to take is often spot on for everywhere else!

Oh, absolutely - i only shared the list because it’s one of the high ranking courses for geology, and if that one doesn’t say you have to have physics, it’s unlikely to be a common issue. Plus the list looked eminently sensible.
And I clarified on Cambridge because the natsci thing has diff criteria to all other earth sciences degrees and best just to be aware in case. That’s the only use case where they physics would matter. Loads of also excellent courses in many brilliant places aside from this.

Can I just say thank you all again for all the thoughts and comments here. Amazingly helpful and really appreciated

I know their current course pretty well through friends that teach it. You don't need physics, but their current course is maths heavy and the students without FM or physics struggle. It's a good course. Other courses skew more chemistry or geography.

A completely left field one, but has she done scouts or DofE? The brilliant physicists often struggle to cope with damp feet on field work nearly as much as the palaeontologists struggle with the physics!

So can’t they buy waterproof boots like everyone else?

I did a levels geography chem biology and (maths which I dropped)

I did earth and environmental science BSc which is geography and physical geography and then did MSc Geology in a specialist field

Now I’m a geography teacher and have been for 20+ years

Chem is helpful for geology

there is a lot of snobbery about geography from some geologists (as you can see in some replies)

I love both. I hope she flourishes in whatever she chooses

This is an excellent post!

I’m a geologist - A levels were Maths, Physics and Chemistry. I went down the Engineering Geology route (MSc) and moved sideways, gradually, into flood risk management.

DH is also a geologist - A level Chem, Geology and Geography. MSc Eng Geology, career in earthworks contracting, engineering consultancy specialising in contaminated land remediation.

DBro is a geologist - became a science teacher
DBro2 is a geologist - went offshore into oil and gas exploration.

I work for the Environment Agency. A few years ago I was involved in some work looking at recruitment and retention. The very clear output of this work is that our most useful people are Earth Scientists with a post grad speciality.

At this point in time i would recommend specialising in sustainanabilty; decarbonisation and GIS.

I am convinced that Geologists and Geographers are about to have their moment. Future politics will revolve around mineral reserves, water resources, habitable land and clean energy generation.