Further maths A level - should I post in this section?

[furthermaths]

DD loves maths and is predicted 9 at maths/further maths gcse/level 2. However everyone keeps saying how hard the A level is and how many drop out and am wondering if it is maybe more suited to those who are better at the maths challenges etc. Or would the cats testing be a good indicator of potential.

Predicted 9 at gcse and doing further maths gcse is absolutely fine. He’ll be ok.

My son got a 9 for further maths and also statistics and is coping fine doing A-level. If she loves Maths as much as my son seems to she’ll be fine.

Further maths is a different beast!
Let her try it and see. I don’t think you can predict this.
My DS got all 9s in gcse maths ad maths and further math, was advised by school to do the A level, absolutely hated it….. dropped it by Christmas
My dd only did one maths gcse, got an 8, had to move schools to be allowed to do A level Further maths, loved it, got an A

This applies to all subjects, if you don't understand something ask for clarification. Mainly because when they are high achieving they usually just grasp concepts and are not used to asking for help with it.

Both my children did maths and further maths A levels after achieving mid level 9s in maths GCSE. They got A star A star and A star and A (FM)

And yes A levels is this section, 16-19 years but some post in secondary as it is a continuation of secondary for some.

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My DS is doing Maths and FM a levels having done maths,FM and stats GCSEs (all 9s). He is finding it easy so far as most of his class didn’t do FM at GSCE. If she loves maths then encourage her do 4 a levels to begin with so she can drop one if needed.

I think the thing with FM A-level is that you need to be both good at maths and good at, for want of a better word, working hard. Maths GCSE, for example, I didn’t need to revise for but when some of my cohort tried that approach with FM A-level, thinking their natural ability would get them through, it didn’t work.

I think as well, it’s worth asking how the school teaches them together. Most schools I know teach the whole of maths A level in year 12 and then FM in year 13. Therefore for some, it’ll be the pace that is the issue rather than the content. If they drop out in the first half term they won’t have actually done any FM, just normal maths at twice the speed!

For example, my ds got a 9 at maths gcse but didn’t take FM as he knew the pace wouldn’t suit him. He’s studying physics at Uni and is coping with the maths element fine having just done A level maths (he got an A).

My dd did both maths and FM GCSEs (9 in both) and is doing maths and FM a-levels. She likes the pace. They’ve already covered the whole of 1st year maths. I think she would have been bored if she was just doing maths and what they’ve done in less than a term was spread over the whole year!

It is difficult but there's nothing to suggest there that she wouldn't be able to cope with it. We would always advise that someone who wants to do Further Maths A-level start with four subjects and then if they don't like it or can't manage it, they have the option to drop it. She should definitely give it a go if she's interested.

Further Maths A level is harder.

But it’s not creative like the challenges. If you are a solid mathematician, you can revise techniques and do very well.

But, like all Maths, it is a balance between native ability and work. Some people will have to work much harder to achieve well.

Thank you this is all very helpful. She loves maths and loves a personal challenge in anything and wont consider not doing it but I just wanted to find out as much as possible as I doubt she would agree to drop it once started.

She has a great work ethic although she has never needed to do any work for maths, but she would when she drops all the subjects that require work for gcse.

She doesnt get gold on maths challenges and I wondered if those kids were the ones who do best at FM plus everyone saying it is so hard. It would be harder for her to drop it as her 4th A level is more practical so may not be well recognized/accepted but she wont consider not taking that either!

Her school teach maths in yr 12 and fm in yr 13 which seems sensible to me (taught separately to those just doing maths) but what happens to those who drop fm at end of yr 12?

At her school the fm class was 6 students last year all boys so she would spend half her week (maths and fm) in such a small group. Is that good or can it be better in a school with more kids doing fm?

@Littlemissbubbblles or anyone else do you have any theories why the difference. Personalities who like work/challenge or better teaching or?

Sounds like she has all the attributes needed to do it ( so did my son!) I feel that for my two kids it was the schools and the teaching. My son was at a grammar, it was expected of him, he was incredibly bright, ended up being put of maths ( and education) for life!
For my dd, also at a grammar school, she was always told she wasn’t the brightest,so couldn’t do add maths etc.. when she got her 8 in her GCSE single maths she was told she couldn’t do A level further maths!! So she left the grammar school and went to the sixth form of our local comprehensive, where they did allow her to do maths and further maths. Where she flew!
@furthermaths I think you’re over thinking this, she’s a young adult, support her when she needs it, but let her try if she wants to. None of us know how we’ll react to a situation until we’re in it.

She doesnt get gold on maths challenges and I wondered if those kids were the ones who do best at FM

I just looked up the intermediate maths challenge results of the strongest Further Mathematician I've ever taught, an easy A* and Cambridge, and they only got a silver on the maths challenge.

@furthermaths
One important consideration - if she likes maths, she may want to do a STEM subject at Uni (say engineering ), or economics. All of those require FM.

Yes, FM is harder at A-levels. But Maths*Further Maths do have a certain overlap and are not two fully different A-levels.
Also - you don’t need to be good at maths challenges to do well in FM.

IF she decided to apply for a pure maths degree in Oxbridge - then, it’d be an issue, but not otherwise.

Finally - she can always drop FM, if her school lets them start with 4 A-levels. Or - switch before autumn halfterm - as many of them allow.

@MMmomDD thank you but the issue is if she drops it and only does 3 then one of those is a practical which would limit unis and she cant swap as her school dont allow 4 unless one is FM. hence why she needs to think carefully now as it impacts choice of sixth form.

What are the three and why do you think it would limit unis?

If you share her other choices we can likely give more rounded advice on the impact of dropping FM - some schools can give slightly odd advice about what subjects are good for university etc.

Her grades and ability sound absolutely fine. It’s intense, doing that much maths, and it’s a little intimidating as everyone doing FM is aiming v high, but also good because you’re in a class with other great mathematicians. My son’s college do the “a level in y12 and further maths content in y13”. It’s a v high speed pace, eg they’d cover one full topic in the 8 lessons over one week, then on to the next one, whereas the “normal” way would be to cover that one topic in 4 lessons one week and 4 the next. So there’s more time for things to sink in. Over half of the FM students from the start of y12 dropped out, fairly early on. The college recommended gcse 8 or above, but did allow grade 7 if they were v close with good references. A school that says definitely 8 and ideally 9 would probably have fewer dropouts but I don’t know at all.

I thought perhaps subjects such as art, food tech, pe etc would not be accepted as a 3rd at top unis if she didnt do fm but would be ok as a 4th

IMC is quite a bit harder than FM after adjusting for knowledge required. So not getting a gold is far from a bad sign, especially if he hasn't studied for them (many of those getting gold have studied)

@furthermaths

Personally - I don’t know anyone who is capable (and would be interested) in doing maths+FM + any of those choices you mention. Maybe Art. The other 2 I have not heard of as A-level choices.

I guess the question is - what does she want to do in Uni? Art/maths combination can be useful for architecture path. Otherwise - if she wants to do something creative in Art, she can of course take Maths, but FM is a lot of hard work and she won’t need it.

The ONLY reason to take FM is if she wants to apply to STEM degrees. And IF she does, she needs to take other science A-levels. Food tech, PE or Art wont count as A-levels for those degrees in any university.

@MMmomDD I agree it is unusual to be a girl doing FM and especially with a more practical 4th A level. She would be taking chemistry or biology with maths and fm. She is targeted and predicted 9s in all subjects but wants to follow her passions.
I made choices that an academic school didnt agree with and even self taught my practical A level not offered and ended up with an amazing career so will not try to influence her other than giving her the facts such as what is required for which universities and which A levels may not be accepted.

If she enjoys maths and has support she will be fine. DD did Maths, FM and Physics and Chemistry and enjoyed them all (as did DS).

I have a girl in my FM group who is doing art. She's looking to go into architecture I think.

Let us not collectively try to find reasons to dissuade the OP's daughter from giving FM a go. She likes maths and seems to be good at it.

At this stage, for example, she may not be thinking of a maths degree but her ambitions might shift and focus during sixth form. Most maths depts are interested in maths performance, will be attracted to a candidate offering FM even if most applicants do not have it, and couldn't care less about the third or fourth subjects, except in terms of grade.

My only concern about Art in the mix as a fourth A level would be the potential time sink of that subject. If Art or PE were in a mix of Maths, FM and, say, Economics or Psychology or Geography or a science, then dropping FM would not leave them 'high and dry' as some seem to fear.

My daughter took FM, in a class dominated by boys, and was initially much less confident than the boys. However, she was the tortoise who gradually overtook the hares - so don't overthink that aspect. She was creative but actually chose to pursue that side as a hobby - another option to consider if concerns about Art and PE persist.

I don't know if you are saying she would be doing biology, chemistry, maths and further maths, or something like art, food tech or pe. Lots of options there. What is she interested in?

I think lots of STEM courses ask for 2 sciences. Maths is included as a science. I don't know if PE would be. Chemistry seems to be quite an important one for a lot of sciences, including medicine. Maybe something like maths, fm, chemistry, art?

My DD did further maths. She is very bright and hard working but I wouldn't say she has a particular love of maths. She enjoyed the small class size and the fact that she felt very stretched.