UCAS parent confusion!

[Mumof3France]

Hi,

Am looking for a heads up from parents educated (like me) in the UK who (unlike me) have stayed in the UK and brought up their families there.

As an outsider to the UK for the past 20 years, with children born and schooled in France, I am trying to identify the main changes to university admission since I began my own degree at Oxford in 1992.

I sense that some degrees have become massively competitive (especially STEM and law and anything else that looks likely to be able to be monetised so graduates can pay back their loans). At the same time, other degrees with less obvious vocational value, even in some traditionally good universities, have become much easier to access, to the extent that administrators may have to scrape around to get good bums on lecture theatre seats. Or at the very least, apply far less stringent criteria to the applications they receive for these less sought-after degrees.

The increase in demand for some courses translates to great pressure on candidates for those courses to achieve faultless A levels. With applications so high, it seems that getting into those courses has become a fairly pitiless numbers game, with little if any attention able to be paid to candidates as (thinking) individuals with potential. The emphasis on contextualised offers also means that those candidates are viewed more as products of a certain set of circumstances than as individuals.

The pressure felt by candidates means that they focus a lot on universities’ perceived ´prestige’, which makes me suspect many aim for those universities mainly for the brand or label. Which does seem a shame, intellectually speaking.

Finally, for the most competitive universities and courses we have a tilted playing field, with overseas applicants aplenty, ready to pay hugely over the UK odds for a place at Oxbridge or London. It seems clear that admissions criteria on some courses are looser for those candidates.

All in all, I see a system that makes me queasy. Please tell me if I am missing something or misinterpreting the information I am gleaning from across the Channel.

TIA!

Going to university to do a degree can be pretty pointless now. Unless you are heading into science, medicine or engineering then what’s the point in getting an English degree to just work in an office?

My daughter has an English degree and is on a highly paid graduate scheme in Finance with a guaranteed six figure job after three years

I am sick of English degrees perceived as a waste of time 😡

Totally agree that going to university is a totally different ball game from when I went in 1984. My eldest two went in 2010/11 and it was still a bit recognisable but the universities felt more like a business. Ds went in 2021 and by then it was a definite disadvantage attending a public school, despite him being entitled to fsm if he went to a state school. Dd3 is in y12 so will be applying this autumn. It's so stressful that she will be judged on factors outside of her control and also how important grades are now! She is taking IB because she likes a challenge so that just adds to the fun.

That’s a very ChatGPT post.

And you are overemphasising the impact of contextual offers.

if you are on Facebook very useful group to post on re
this is wiwikau (what I wish I knew about university)

Interesting.. half of our friends at top London barristers’ sets are English grads. My own background in investment banking were full of English grads. Very common route into accountancy too and solicitors too. Doesn’t seem like a pointless degree to me? 🤔 This view is often held by those with a very limited educational background. I can assure you that most of the upper class professional roles are staffed with humanities grads (from the top unis).

It’s totally shocking.

Exactly - I just posted this

Interesting.. half of our friends at top London barristers’ sets are English grads. My own background in investment banking were full of English grads. Very common route into accountancy too and solicitors too. Doesn’t seem like a pointless degree to me? 🤔 This view is often held by those with a very limited educational background. I can assure you that most of the upper class professional roles are staffed with humanities grads (from the top unis).

This post makes me feel like you feel that ubi should be for the elite and the elite only.

You are concerned that your child will be amongst people who she doesn't belong amongst. You sound very elitist.

I can't believe you actually posted this sneering, snobbish post twice.

I’m not really sure what your question is

I started my degree in 1993 and, apart from the huge expansion, the benefits of which are not certain, I’m not sure that things have changed as much as you suggest. Even the introduction of fees and loans has mostly resulted in an extra “tax” for graduates. Most degrees at “good” universities are still hugely competitive, regardless of subject. My daughter’s humanities peers are mostly destined for management and finance careers, whereas her STEM degree (biology/environment) has much worse prospects. No way is anyone “scraping around” for good candidates.

In contrast to your statement, the few exceptionally competitive courses have so many candidates with good grades that their other skills and enthusiasm are the main differentiating factors. Contextualised offers are a small minority (although data is very scarce) and, many bodies believe, does not go a long way towards levelling the playing field for disadvantaged applicants. I do sympathise with those who feel that an independent education now actively hinders applicants but my experience is that this is only true at Oxbridge (obviously still not acceptable).

Inevitably, some students, and their parents, do focus excessively on prestige but, realistically, for some careers this is a relevant consideration. My DCs’ experiences suggest that there is a correlation between the “prestige” and the academic level of the degree.

As I understand it, all universities have separate quotas for international and home students because they would not be financially viable without a certain proportion of international fees, so the two cohorts are not competing for the same places.

The system isn’t perfect but my main concerns are the appalling lack of information and advice provided by so many schools to their students, and the push to regard all degrees as “equal” when in practice they are nothing of the kind.

I don’t see what’s snobbish about it.

Obviously

If applying from France most of what you diss is irrelevant as your family will be seen as overseas students and will by applying using different criteria that are really much easier to gain entry to any UK university.

I agree with you! This person went to Oxford in the 80’s which was a different selection process and yet seems to criticise other Universities for selecting high calibre candidates. There has always been programmes that were difficult to get on because of popularity, consider Physiotherapy and Veterinary Science, places had 200 applicants to each uni place In 20000

OP your dc will be applying as international students so will have easier passage as the universities will be wanting your higher international fees

Young people are sold the idea that university is an experience that they should enjoy and make the most of before they have to start work and start making repayments.
There’a lots of life at uni content on social media so students can see if it’s the sort of place that they’d like to attend. It’s a big coat but YOLO I guess.

2 of my dc did engineering at university- one finishes his MEng next month and the other finished 10 years ago. Neither would consider an apprenticeship as they both felt they HAD to go to university.

Thanks for the replies. I am interested in the assumptions in some of them (that my children if they applied to UCAS would pay international fees - some commenters might do some research about the fee status until 2028 of British kids in the EU..) and also the factual inaccuracies (I didn’t go to university in the 1980s, fortunately I am not quite that old). And my critique certainly doesn’t come from ChatGPT!! Not sure how to take that one (ha, ha). I feel some people are in too much of a hurry to post and show off to reflect properly first - which tells me exactly how highly to value their input.

Also not sure why someone thinks I am elitist for wondering if the UK university market hasn’t got skewed by fees, loans and overseas students. I sense a lot of stress and anxiety among UK sixth-formers, which is inevitable when the financial and employment stakes are high, and I feel it’s a shame that sheer applicant numbers mean that many good candidates will not get something they want and may be good enough to do. It’s a tough lesson when someone is 17 or 18. If it’s a sign of a healthy and functioning market, so be it, but I am not convinced, partly because of the international student subsidy.

Thank you to those who replied honestly and thoughtfully, though. I will be pleased to read carefully through your thoughts.

The increase in demand for some courses translates to great pressure on candidates for those courses to achieve faultless A levels.

With applications so high, it seems that getting into those courses has become a fairly pitiless numbers game,

The emphasis on contextualised offers also means that those candidates are viewed more as products of a certain set of circumstances than as individuals.

This is how you naturally write? On a chat forum? And not via AI?

If you say so.

When you went to uni, 10% of school leavers went, now around 35% go. Not sure how it’s become MORE competitive…. Pretty much everyone who gets A level grade D+ or equivalent will be able to go.

And to be fair OP quite a few UK citizens in the EU were unsure about their fee status and unaware of that loophole so you can’t really expect MN who are largely living in the UK to be aware.

Agreed. Loads of other professions need literate/creative people.

I feel some people are in too much of a hurry to post and show off to reflect properly first - which tells me exactly how highly to value their input.
How to win over your audience! LOL

I love the snidey comment about being a 'show off' from someone who managed - by the third sentence - to drop in the totally irrelevant fact that she went to Oxford