Further maths or a language

[agraceabrace]

DD wants to study either Politics and Economics or straight economics at uni. She's in Y11, predicted mostly 8s and 9s one or two 7s.
She's obviously already set on doing Politics, Economics and Maths. She is predicted a 9 in maths, French and German
DD loves Languages it's a passion and she has been teaching herself for about 5 years. She's effectively fluent in French and German.
DDs school think she should start with a 4 A-levels, with the provision of she can drop one if it is too much. DD wants to try.
The school have suggested she either do Further Maths or one of the languages. With further maths maybe making her more competitive should she go down straight economics route for uni, but the language might be a nice touch for Politics and Economics or future employment.
DD is more interested in Politics and Economics than straight economics.

Do you think she would be better taking a language (if so which one? She's equally good at both) or further maths.
DD loves maths and languages so this is a real struggle for her!

The two relevant questions are 1) what are the admissions criteria for the courses she might consider and 2) what's her gut instinct saying?

Both are fine, sometimes it's a question of checking carefully if either decision would rule something out, and if not just going with a feeling.

She could do what my DS is doing and take German A Level on the side as a 5th A Level purely because he likes it

He can't go into lessons but follows the Spec and communicates with the German teacher and is even going on the German exchange trip

DS will be starting a Maths degree later this year. He is currently Yr 13

He takes Physics, Chemistry, Maths, FM and German

At his school they take their Maths A Level at the end of Yr 12

Those who get an A star can go on to do FM otherwise they have to drop it. Half had to drop it.

I don't think there's any point taking FM unless the degree she's applying for specifies it but of course it's up to them what they want to take

DS doesn't find FM difficult but there is a lot of work involved

As for employment they're just interested if you can speak the languages as opposed to whether you have an A Level in it if it's a requirement for the role

Some economics degrees are quite mathsy.

Some are not.

If she's interested in the mathsy ones, even if only potentially, I'd do further maths to keep her options open.

I’d go along with the good advice provided by LightSwerve above. Check entry requirements for courses she is interested in as a starting point.
Further Maths is an interesting one: this is anecdotal obviously, but one of my children is an excellent mathematician and FM really didn’t seem that challenging for him and just seemed like an extension of the Maths he was already doing.
I would think that FM might be very useful for some economics courses.
Other points to consider are does your daughter have any idea of what she wants to do after university?
Also are there any courses she’s interested in that incorporate a year abroad? She could continue with one of her languages as a hobby and then really consolidate her learning if she did this. Agree that the ability to speak a language is the most appealing aspect to employers.
If she does decide to take a language for A level, which of the two does she prefer? Is French perhaps more widely spoken / slightly easier at A level?
Finally, when my children were at school ( a while ago now!) there was some potential to change A level choices in the first half term of sixth form. Maybe this is still the case.

So far she hasn't found anything that has required further maths, admittedly she's not looking at the straight economics courses as much as the Politics and Economics.
She wants to work in Risk Analysis - mainly political or country risk - I'll be honest I have no idea what that really entails and know that in the end that could change.
Right now she doesn't plan to study abroad but again something that may change.
DD is in a toss up for French and German as while French is more widely spoken, she may end up working in financial services or a bank if she goes down the risk route and obviously Germany and Switzerland are big hubs for those services.
I've told her to have a look and see if there is an alternative qualification she can get for the languages (I think she would like something tangible and that future employers could trust). It's all such a stress picking A-Levels !!

So far she hasn't found anything that has required further maths, admittedly she's not looking at the straight economics courses as much as the Politics and Economics.
She needs to look at Economics then to see if any do require FM.

She can also look at what language options there are at Uni. There would be a charge, but it sounds like it could be worth it.

If she enjoys both languages equally, I would pick German. There is a huge government push for German at the moment as employers across lots of sectors are asking for it but we have do few pupils doing it. The Goethe Institut (cultural arm of the embassy, like the British Council) offer their own highly respected courses if she wants something outside A level. They are still our biggest European trading partner and German is the language in Europe spoken by more native speakers than any other. It is a hugely important language that is in a desperate situation in this country. www.goethe.de/ins/gb/en/spr/drm/dot.html

She's just messaged from school to say she looked on her lunch break. Some of the economics courses do look favourably on Further Maths.
She is now saying he will probably just apply for politics and economics combined instead of straight economics as she'd enjoy that more.
I asked if that meant she was going to do a language and she said she isn't sure.

I can only speak from my own experience when I took my A Levels around 10 years ago - I got pressured by my school into taking Further Maths instead of Spanish and very much regretted it. I was good at Maths but nowhere near interested enough to cope with the sheer volume of it all - 12 hours a week of Maths altogether plus homework. Like your DD I applied for and ended up studying a social sciences type degree that did include some maths (not PPE but similar). Single Maths would have been fine. Obviously this depends on the course, and if they prefer FM then fair enough, but I don't think it is the be all and end all. Besides, depending on what she might like to do after, the language could prove useful. I am trilingual and use languages daily at work in financial services following my degree.

I was good at Maths but nowhere near interested enough to cope with the sheer volume of it all - 12 hours a week of Maths altogether plus homework. This has to be considered - it is a lot of Maths!

Some of the economics courses do look favourably on Further Maths. Can she find some that don't, so the option stats open, is it a BSc/BA distinction?

I did a science degree but had the option, in the first year, to do a language. They streamed us based on tests they did in the first week so those who had only done GCSE weren’t in with those who more fluent. If she’s choosing between the two languages she could do one at A level and one at uni.

Most economics courses will say they don’t need FM. That’s because some schools don’t offer it. In reality many students will have it. If she wants a top job, she needs to look at a top uni. Then FM is far more widespread amongst the successful students. Economics is very competitive.

Also most unis offer dc continuing MFL modules. It’s possible to study abroad for a year if you do this and are good enough. So French (Geneva is French speaking) would be a good uni to aim for for a year abroad. An A level in the MFL would not be required.

If she's thinking of possibly applying to Oxford for PPE FM would be advisable.

If she's really already fluent could she take some non A level proficiency exams to prove that?

Sorry but how in anyway would either of those be helpful for someone wanting to study economics and go on to work in finance?
I understand the importance of vocations but seriously not right for DD at all.

They won’t and some courses would not accept them either. However DD might have to accept FM is a good A level to take for Economics.

I did further maths over and above a language. It helped with my (stem) degree choice and was the right decision for me at the time but I showed myself to lose my languages while I was very busy with a levels, then degree and so on and I really regret that.

If she's confident she doesn't need the maths for her degree I would go with the language.

These would stand out but not in a good way I think. She doesn't need qualifications in construction or catering if she is going to work in financial services/risk management or a mathematical field. It's not like she needs a 'trade' to fall back on.

OP, your daughter sounds very talented. I would research a little further the qualifications required by the universities and courses she is interested in. If she needs FM, that's your answer. However, without knowing the details, I would say German would be an excellent addition to the economics and maths. Languages demonstrate a fantastic additional string to the bow. Also, in these days when there is such low language uptake, it really would be an opportunity to stand out in a relevant and pote tially useful way. Good luck either way, I wish her every success!

At Warwick, they can study languages in their degree, whatever the degree, without having them at A Level. It doesn't interest DS at all as he hated GCSE German with a passion, but I would have loved it!

I didn't take German at school but now work in finance in Germany and Switzerland. I would suggest that she takes the Goethe C1 certificate, which can be sat at the Goethe Institute in London. PM me if you like about preparation materials. There are equivalents for French too, and a specific Wirtschaftsdeutsch (business German) certificate she could also take, but in my experience it's not very well-known and simply having the C1 level of German is more likely to be in demand.

@mynameisnotmichaelcaine Many unis offer this to students now. Bristol and Bath do plus many others. It’s to keep MFL lecturers employed! Plus dc (not MFL students) can go abroad to study as I said earlier. It’s good for the students who do have an interest.