If you're a lawyer,

[Okki]

What was your undergraduate degree and what area of law do you work in?

I didn't go to uni, so I'm a bit clueless about what's out there as DD is thinking about all of this now and careers advice has been fairly dire.

Do you have to go to Uni or can you get an apprenticeship?

Yes I will Google, but I also like to hear about actual experience people have. Thank you

Undergrad was in nursing, worked for 4 years then trained as barrister in family law.
You can do law straight out of school. I wish I had done it instead of doing another degree first but I was only 18 and wasn't sure what I wanted. I think undergrad entry may be more competitive than postgrad entry?

I did a law degree without intending to qualify, but ended up becoming a solicitor in a roundabout way.

Some firms do offer apprenticeships and from what I’ve seen they look brilliant, you get pays, get study leave and get loads of good experience along the way (after 6 years in a law firm!).

Most firms don’t care whether you do a law degree or not, but the conversion course adds time and potentially money (for fees & living expenses) if she doesn’t find a firm to pay for her.

I’d say a law degree is more interesting than the conversion course, but it depends what her other options are.

Law and I now work in employment law. But you can study anything at uni and do the GDL conversion course, so I'd suggest something she's interested in (and therefore is more likely to do well in) that is reasonably academic (history, English, etc).

My personal view is that I can usually tell when a trainee/newly qualified hasn't studied law at undergraduate level as their knowledge of case law tends to be weaker, but it evens out in the end and many of the bigger firms seem to actually prefer non-law grads, perhaps as more rounded individuals?

Obviously taking another course is more time and money, but if she can secure a training contract with a larger firm, they will likely pay for the GDL anyway.

Thank you. Also a hopeful bump for more responses.

Law. But you can do any degree and go on to do law if you have a strong degree though sadly there is still some snobbery and your first degree needs to be conventionally academic only - maths / English / history / chemistry etc. I had a great paralegal and petitioned the firm to give her a training contract they wouldn’t because she had done American Studies.

My husband (managing partner at big London law firm) actually preferred if they didn't do law as an undergraduate. He himself did as he had a passion for law since he was a kid.

History of art BA then intellectual property, it, media and telecoms specialist in magic circle law

these days you would need a science/CS undergrad

Went straight into law from university. Trained in corporate, spent 10 years in criminal and now in regulation.

Non-law undergrad degree make better lawyers IMO but then I would say that wouldn’t I.

but worth remembering in many other commonwealth jurisdictions inc us and Canada you can only study law once you have got an undergrad degree in another subject

DH did an engineering degree, worked as an engineer, then did a law conversion and now specialises in litigation that focuses on engineering/construction.

Straight from school I meant!

Undergrad was Psychology.
Now Financial services lawyer.

my daughter did law, is magic circle, focuses on commercial litigation,

I have had quite a varied career within law (corporate City / high street/ private client) and have found having a law degree has really helped me as I have a broad grounding in criminal / family / property which I still use today. Less likely to be the case if you specialised in one area your whole career.

Undergrad was PPE - now a commercial barrister and chair of pupillage committee. We find no difference in pupillage success between those coming from law or non-law undergraduate backgrounds. (NB many, including me, also have postgrad and/or prior professional experience, but we do have some very good people coming through younger).

@Okki
DD did MFL undergrad. Play to your strengths! Then convert. She’s now a family barrister. It’s extremely competitive. It’s also very important, when you start out, to know where your strengths lie. If it’s not commercial, look for alternative avenues. Criminal law doesn’t pay well. Be realistic and don’t look at niche areas. in real life, few are human rights barristers!

If you do law, or don’t do law, go to a top university. If you are not a career changer with years of relevant experience, it is vital. The law, as a career, can be choosy so RG university is best and top RG better. Regional universities are good for regional law firms. London has a slightly different view snd apart from Oxbridge it’s vital to look at what universities give the best chance.

Also do an academic subject if it’s not law. That’s just going to get you to the starting line. Then do everything you can to get a training agreement or pupilage. There is help and guidance so follow it to the letter.

There are law apprenticeships but be aware that career changers of any age can get them. They will also be ultra competitive.

Nowadays, it is much easier to qualify because you no longer need a training contract, just 2 years' qualifying work experience which is much broader and take an exam called the Solicitors Qualifying Exam (SQE).

sqe.sra.org.uk/about-sqe/what-is-the-sqe

You don't have to do a law undergraduate degree, just take a course to help prepare for and pass the SQE.

Many lawyers discourage their own children from becoming lawyers because it is so ultra competitive now, especially if you want to make it as a solicitor in the City. It is not unheard of for aspiring solicitors with great degrees from top tier universities to have to start as paralegals first to be able to get their foot through the door.

I have a BA in Criminology and an MA I social work. Been a practising social worker for 15 years and love the legal/law side of stuff I do - DoLs/LPS, COP, MCA, MHA.

I've recently been 'what iffing' about the routes I took and wondering of it would be too hard to convert to law in some way. This thread has been very inspiring.

Degree in law and French from Russell Group. Qualified solicitor working in à compliance/ethics role at a Big4 firm. Son about to go to uni and wants to be a lawyer (Suits style). Loves history and politics so will study that. If still keen on law, he will do conversion idc. I’ve enjoyed my career… he needs to make his own decisions.

Degree in history from a a good (not oxbridge) uni, conversion, LPC (as it then was). Now a partner in a City firm.

There are now apprenticeship routes in, they involve working for a firm for 6 years while studying part time (the last 2 years being equivalent to a training contract). They are very new at a number of firms, so not sure what the experience is like.

@blueshoes
Its not easy to get a job! Or get pupillage. Training contracts are still being offered and the big firms still have their contracts with the Law Schools. Otherwise the aspiring lawyer pays the fees.

We have in excess of 18,000 plus young people studying law at university. Some won’t expect to be working lawyers. Then there are huge numbers studying other academic subjects and then wish to convert to law. As an example: circa 1400 people qualify as barristers each year. There are around 450 pupilage opportunities each year. You are not a fully qualified barrister until you complete pupilage. So passing the exams is only one partial qualification. Previously unsuccessful applicants can apply. Therefore it’s very competitive. Law grads are then competing along with classics, history, English etc grads. People from all sorts of backgrounds. One thing they have in common is that they are mostly bright and capable. I think their qualification routes are changing too but it won’t be any less competitive.

@exwhyzed
Anyone wanting a career in law should be academically bright and understand it’s a slog. Some people love it. DD (family law barrister) and friends do. Barristers can be poorly paid. Work can be unpredictable and barristers are mostly self employed. DD travels to courts all over the place. Chambers in London but clients are not! Early starts and overnights not unusual. Some career changers find money issues (NO monthly salary) and travel a risk too far. You pay for your own pension. The CPS is the employed Bar. So it all takes a lot of research and an understanding of whether you will ultimately be successful.

There is also the issue of first degree. They might recruit university blind but look at A levels. They also look at degree studied. There’s a reason why 40% of barristers are Oxbridge.

@TizerorFizz, I am not surprised about what you described about becoming a barrister. You must really love it to want that lifestyle.

There is quite a difference between becoming a barrister and becoming a solicitor. Solicitors don't tend to schlep around to courts but their work could involve more international travel if they work on cross border deals as a solicitor. OP's dd will have to choose on graduation which route she wants to go down.

I found this link which explains the difference between the barrister and solicitor route quite well www.thelawyerportal.com/careers/difference-between-solicitor-and-barrister/

If it is hard to get a training contract (in old money) to become a solicitor, I think it is even more competitive to get pupillage at a barristers chambers. In terms of numbers, there are roughly 8 solicitors for every barrister. Therefore, there are more opportunities to become a solicitor. Hopefully the new SQE will remove the bottleneck around having to get a training contract and make it easier for law graduates to get the experience necessary to qualify as a solicitor. That said, that just moves the bottleneck to the point of getting an actual job as a newly qualified (NQ) solicitor.

On salaries for solicitors, the top solicitors earn millions. Famously a corporate M&A solicitor was poached from a magic circle UK firm to work for the London office of a US firm for 10m per year. NQ solicitors at top US firms earn 170K on qualification - we are talking about a 25 year old who is barely wet behind the ears. Hence the competitive nature of getting a training contract in a City firm.

But you can earn a decent living as a solicitor or barrister for much less, just that you must enjoy it more if the monetary rewards are less as the law tends to be a hard slog to practice as a lawyer. I always think that there are easier ways of earning money outside of the law if you are not aiming for stellar figures. You don't have to work in a law firm (private practice) as a lawyer but can become an inhouse lawyer instead, which suits some people better. These roles can also pay very well and are more commercial which some people find rewarding. A law degree or good first degree is nonetheless a good foundation to pivot to another career, if OP's dd is not inclined to become a lawyer.

I think there are currently around 6000 solicitor vacancies for trainees each year but way more people than vacancies. It will reduce if London loses its position in the financial markets.

DD has friends who are city lawyers and they work very hard for big money. You truly have to want that lifestyle and the brains to get it. Provincial solicitors in small local firms are very different but often people are paralegals for years prior to getting taken on to be solicitors. Yes, the bottleneck just moves up the line without the old training contract route.

Criminal barristers make little. Payment after lengthy cases means you need funds to pay the rent. Usually from mum and dad. Then there’s the travel and overnight costs. The best advice is to read up very carefully about all the routes into law and decide which one is best and attainable. Don’t think you will be Cherie Blair or Amal Clooney overnight - be realistic. Play to your strengths at undergrad degree and beyond. However a traditional academic degree is best.

I did an LLB (my lawyer children did a different degre first and then a law conversion). I am a solicitor. I practise commercial/business law in London. There are lots of lawyers on MN and some very good advice above on this thread.

Although technically possible to qualify via an apprenticeship at age 18 in my view it is better to go to a good university after A levels either to do an LLB or a different degree first. 50% of lawyers do an LLB and 50% a different degree. If you do a different degree the law firms even under the new SQE system for solicitors tend to prefer oyou do a law conversion (PGDL) before your SQE 1 and 2 courses and exams (which in turn are before your 2 years of a training contract if you are lucky enough to get one.

The timeline for the City Consortium firms is set out quite well here

Also at university apply - firms recruit years ahead and ideally you want a law firm to sponsor your post grad year(s)/courses/exams and then pay you as their trainee for 2 years. www.slaughterandmay.com/media/rs2jvepv/the-city-consortium-solicitor-training-programme.pdf

Some statistics for which universities trainees come from are quite helpful here
www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-start/newsletter/law-firms-preferred-universities-2019
Some recruit university blind but you still have to pass all the tests to get to interview/assessment stage. Some will have programmes to help the disadvantaged too.

Also pick 3 very good ideally hard A level subjects if you can and aim to get at least AAB in them.
Barrister is a different route.