Oxbridge

[vcfromhk]

We are new to London and our daughter goes to a neighbourhood outstanding state school.

Is it true that chances to get into Oxbridge are brightest from a private school? What schools have the best record to get kids into Oxbridge if this is the case?

My DD is not very academic and would describe her as average in Maths but very good in English.

Thanks

If she is not very academic then the school won't matter.

Why are you thinking about Oxbridge possibilities?

I'm confused. Your child "isn't very academic" but you want to know from where she'll have the best chance of securing an Oxbridge place?

Then, surely, she would be better going to a university that will suit her better?

My DD is not very academic

Then Oxbridge probably won't suit her

How old is she?

Do you mean she is academic in English? Is she planning to apply for English Literature degrees, or a different subject?English at Oxbridge is a bit of an assault course IMo. What attracts her to the courses?

In general, yes a school that is selective, can teach a bright cohort at a fast pace and which sells itself on Oxbridge places achieved, will get more children into Oxbridge. Many of those are private schools. The fundamental issue is whether your daughter wants the particular type of course and teaching at Oxbridge and whether she thrives on 1:1 or 2:1 intense teaching.

If your daughter isn’t very academic please don’t push Oxbridge on her. The rate at which Oxford students have to research and write essays is astonishing and pushes even very academic, very committed students to the edge of their abilities. There are many other excellent universities in this country that will provide a strong but less intense degree experience.

If she’s not very academic then it really makes no difference where she’s educated, she’s not getting into either Oxford or Cambridge.

If she’s not on for three or four A star A-levels then it’s not going to happen. Even if there was some buzzard and farcical mix-up with the applications and she did get accepted, she’d then just have an appalling first year and then get kicked out at the end of it.

How old is she op? Is she in sixth form now or still at KS4? What is she hoping to study at uni?

Agree with others, Oxford and Cambridge are only recommended or indeed feasible for very academic students, so I wouldn't worry too much about how many go there from x or y school.

AS suggests her DC is in Year 7.

In which case, OP, as long as you're happy with her current school, I would leave worrying about Oxbridge until sixth form choices, at which point you may have more of an idea what she wants to study and whether Oxbridge is even appropriate.

'My daughter is not very academic'
Ok...

I just want to clarify that my daughter is not the brightest but is still above average. I think my comment on not very academic has been taken out of context. Having said that, in the long run I believe that perseverance and hard work matters more than just pure IQ. I'm not pushing my dreams on her and it's her choice that she wants to get into the best possible university. I was trying to understand what's the best I can give her as a father to achieve her dreams.

I'd suggest the best you can do is to give her a broad range of opportunities. And not set your/her heart on Oxbridge too early.

I would say, that of all universities, Oxbridge is more likely to look for real aptitude and passion for the subject. Doing well through perseverance alone might not be good enough. There are many other universities though!

We're going through this process at the moment. DD (Y13) has applied to Oxford, and we're currently waiting to hear on whether she's got an interview. It's been a pretty arduous process already, and anyone's chances of gaining a place are slim (but equally, someone has to go!). DD is consumed by her subject - everything she reads is about it, she's been interested in it since primary school, she runs clubs at school around it, she's joined external associations and attends talks about it. Not because it will help her Oxbridge application, but because she loves it.

I'd say investigate the support your school (or other schools you look at) provides at Sixth Form for University entrance (and also other routes - some degree apprenticeships are more competitive than Oxbridge). Look at numbers doing the early application route (Oxbridge, medicine, vet science and dentistry). Look at Sixth Form destination lists.

FWIW, many top Universities are offering the same entrance requirements as Oxbridge without the additional jumping through hoops as part of the application process (ie minimum 3 As). Also worth bearing in mind that Oxbridge might not offer the best course for whatever your DD decides to study.

The key question is, is private school better in providing a platform to DD for future compared to state? My DD goes to an outstanding state school called Kingsdale foundation and she also has an offer from a small private school called Sydenham High GDST. We are confused. Of course the private charges 1200 pounds a month. I can stretch myself to support her fee but not sure what she gets out of it

I think if a private school does not improve things for your child, then there isn't much point in it. But whether it will do that depends on the private school tbh , as well as on the state option. I don't know either of the schools you mention so I cannot comment beyond that.

But going to Oxford or Cambridge is not the only way to succeed (thank goodness!). Those particular universities are only suitable for the most academic and focused students, as per the pp whose child is hoping to go.

Luckily there are many other university options to suit the differing abilities (and tastes - not all would actually enjoy Oxford or Cambridge tbh, they have very specific ways of teaching) of students, and lots of very highly thought of universities. I would be wary of hanging everything on which university she may or may not go to.

if I were you, I would ask your question of the school - ask how their students achieve, what they would expect from your DD, what she would get out of the school. What does your DD think? Her pinion is key as well.

Hello, @vcfromhk

I am writing as a former admissions tutor at an ‘upper’ Russell Group English university. (For those who don’t know, the RG is comprised of the traditional research-intensive universities. Although I have some issues with this and find it no longer valid, belonging to the RG is considered prestigious.)

A number of my personal tutees have been Oxbridge rejects, and they are mostly highly academic. Even for the best students, Oxbridge admission has a big element of luck. The best thing you can do for your DD is to broaden her horizons.

I do not at all mean that you should actively quash her dreams. But encourage her to live in the real world. English at Oxford requires AAA at A levels (most will do better) and a suitable mark on the Oxford ELAT exam. At Cambridge the standard is A star AA and a good mark on the 90 minute interview essay.

FWIW, in my STEM discipline the Oxbridge internal exams kill off many an otherwise promising application.

Your DD’s teachers and GCSE marks will give you some sense, well before Year 13, of how realistic an Oxbridge application is. I agree your DD’s maths is irrelevant to an application in a Humanities field.

Your user name raises the possibility that you are from Hong Kong? I believe that Asian parents sometimes downplay their children’s accomplishments in public. I find this refreshing, but it means we don’t really have a sense of your DD’s abilities, except that like most she isn’t an academic superstar.

Personally I would keep her in the Outstanding state school. I would encourage her to continue her personal and academic development in a wholly positive manner and let the chips fall where they may. Best wishes to your family

PS. My reply above assumes that you and your DD are basically happy with the education and environment provided by the state school

PPS The suggestions of PPs to reassess the situation for Sixth Form, should your DD appear to be a reasonable candidate for elite universities, are excellent. The support the school or Sixth Form College can offer during the university applications process is variable and can sometimes make a difference. But it is not as simple as a state/independent dichotomy.

Thanks for your messages. Yes we moved from HK to Uk 7 months ago and by the time we arrived most of the fancy private schools had closed admissions. She has been lucky to get into a outstanding state school called Kingsdale. We have now received a call from Sydenham High GDST independent school that they can offer her a place too. Sydenham is a all girls school and just 40 kids across 2 classes in batch vs Kingsdale which is 400+ kids in 2 batch.

So far DD is happy at the state school except trot occasional instances of bullying or some kids being involved in issues like vaping etc which is far and few. I also find that school has good infra and a wide academic teaching staff. Occasionally at times some subject teachers are absent and replacement staff is not as good.

My impression is that private school kids may be more motivated to study and maybe a more similar cohort economically and socially and in state school it's a wide combination. I personally prefer the kids to be exposed to real world scenario rather than live in a fairy world. My mind is right now inclined to let her continue at state and decide if we need to move her in year 9.

Some people told me that certain type of schools have best chances of preparing for good universities and that's why the thread on what type of schools are better to ensure better universities in future.

Thanks

Reassessing for GCSEs also sounds like a sensible first step.

I can see why you want your DD to be with peers who value learning. That can make a big difference to her outcomes. On the website it looks like K provides such an environment. I don’t know anything about S. Being small gives it both advantages and disadvantages.

Certainly if the bullying were to get bad that would be a reason to consider the move, but in the real world a small amount of low level bullying - if that is really all it is - is something I would encourage my DC to manage (with appropriate help), particularly in early adolescence when it is not uncommon. Especially if they also had friends

Hi, again -

You can tell I found your post intriguing, enough to research S.

The website is fascinating. The curriculum looks strong. I am hugely impressed by the explication of meta-thinking which is presumably imparted to the girls and by the emphasis, according to the site, on teacher CPD and use of best practice. However we don’t know how much this theoretical emphasis translates into reality.

There is a thread on the Secondary Education board from 29/01/22 asking about S. Many positive comments. However a reply on 31/01 says that while many of her friends’ children like it a lot, the university placements are similar to those from nearby state schools. Another poster mentions K longingly as an option they wish they had.

Note: there are also references on this thread to Syndenham Girls’ School or similar, which is a state school. This confused me at first.

OP - I'd suggest posting in the Secondary Education topic with the names of the schools in the title. You will hopefully be able to get some feedback from people who know the schools or have children there currently.

I don't know the schools but 40 children in a year group sounds way too small for a secondary school.

Yes the other neighbourhood state school is called Sydenham school whereas the private is called Sydenham High GDST. Overall I'm sticking with Kingsdale for now and thinking of waiting till year 9.

JAGS is probably your most academic school locally. But no, I don't think Sydnemham high will give her any academic advantage over Kingsdale.

I would caution against the idea that if you do XYZ your child will get into Oxbridge.

Chances are overwhelming that your child won't. The right school helps but if your child isn't very bright, very motivated and with a huge passion for their subject, they won't get in.

I went to a very academic private school which sent 20% of students to Oxbridge. Sounds good but 80% didn't. Some were children of Cambridge professors.

I know lots of clever people who didn't get into Oxford but everyone I met at Oxford was extremely academic.

If it were JAGs or Kingsdale, it might be worth thinking about but a private not especially academic school won't offer much over a really good state school