IB or A Levels, tentatively thinking of medicine

[thedoofus]

Hello!

I've read through previous similar topics, but this hasn't come up for a while, so thought no harm in asking again .

DD is in Y11. Predicted 8s/9s in everything, solid all-rounder. Generally a high achiever, both academically and in other areas (head girl, lead in school play, peer mentor etc etc). She enjoys all her subjects and is self-motivated. Tentatively thinking of medicine, and hoping to do some work experience soon to explore that further. If she does A Levels, they'll be Sciences - probably Biology, Chemistry, Maths, and possibly one other.

Sixth form college also offers the IB, which I think sounds brilliant (I would have LOVED it when I did A Levels), and would mean she could keep up English and French (the French she especially enjoys and is good at). But consensus does seem to be that it's more work/pressure and I'm interested in people's experiences of that.

DD currently has a part-time job, and while we could finance her not having one, it seems like good experience to continue to work through 6th form. We haven't looked into getting into medical school very extensively, but I guess I'm concerned that the extra work with IB might leave less time to pad out her extra-curricular stuff like work/work experience etc. Also, obviously, I want her to have time to enjoy life. She manages herself and her time well at the moment, but I know how much pressure kids can put themselves under (especially high-achieving girls maybe!) and I think it's important to have time for the rest of life too.

Of course it's her decision to make, but I'd love to hear any thoughts/experiences people have for my own interest.

@TizerorFizz there are many graduate areas pay better than medicine - tech sector in general, city law, big firm accountancy, actuarial, management consultantcy, M&A to name but a few. They all pay significantly better than NHS medicine. I have personal experience of one of those areas and was earning a lot more by my late twenties than my children will be. That's before even doing a real term comparison.It's not about the money for them though. I was more fickle. And who knows what anyone's pension situation will be down the line. It would be madness to project the situation as it is for sixty year-old consultants today. @ArcticSkewer that article really isn't accurate. I stopped reading when I got to Investment banking associates earning £60k. Anyway, I've said enough on this thread. OP don't be put off by all the commentary. Med applications are difficult but it is all possible. My DS got four offers first time and that's from a non-medic family. And please do pop over to the medicine thread where there are a few real experts in med school applications (won't name them but they do know everything worth knowing) and they will be able to help a lot.Good luck to your DD.

*It's not about the money for them though

Lots to think about here - the vocation/always known stuff is interesting and seems to divide opinion. I had a school friend who did arts A Levels, an English and Philosophy degree and then eventually turned to medicine and is now a GP. I also have a relative who is retired from medicine and firmly believes it is a calling and could never have imagined doing anything else (though wouldn't wholeheartedly recommend it). DD is perhaps fortunate that DH is senior at an NHS trust, and is able to give her plenty of insight into the NHS if not medicine itself.

This thread has made it clear to me that the process is complex and starts early. @opoponax , thanks for all your thoughts and advice - I may well see you over on the Medicine thread.

Ultimately, all these choices - IB/A Level and (apply for) medicine/other field - are for DD to make, and my interest is in making sure I am able to support her as much as she wants with that process. You have definitely given me some food for thought to help me do that.

I did IB, albeit over a decade ago.

Pros: I found it to be a better overall education due to the global coverage of topics and the breadth of subjects studied. It's also incredibly helpful having a strong background in essay subjects in a science based environment as it helps you stand out and communicate better. Essay writing skills are useful even now and I believe the critical thinking element helped me in my career. It is intense but that meant university felt easier comparatively. I also got in through clearing and believe having done the IB gave me that edge there.

Cons: It's really intense. The way it's set up means the teaching time is less compared to the students in a lot of the other countries it covers so you have to fit a full syllabus in what is realistically 2 months less time than they have because the exams are earlier at the end. This tends to be more of an issue in science and maths with the result that, at my school, results were much lower in those subjects than arts ones. I mean 4s and 5s in students who had a*s at GCSE. I found it all too much with a long commute to and from school plus the extracurriculars required and that's without a Saturday job too. Finally, you have to be really careful the school knows what it's doing as if they cock up the coursework or exam prep it's huge. My school didn't and half of us missed our grades and first choice universities, despite being almost all scholarship kids with strong GCSEs who should have been expected to have a chance at Oxbridge. Students at other schools were much better advised and prepared and got better results.

Personally I'd recommend IB if your daughter isn't sure what she wants to do but a level if you want certain results. I don't regret doing IB personally but it was an extremely stressful couple of years for me and my parents.

@opoponax
They are areas of work which are hugely competitive. Doctors get a job. They are not competing against hunters for the jobs. Therefore the degree is the best paid. Economics degrees are next. All this was researched by the IFS. Have a look at what degrees pay the best. Of course others get more but they have had to compete much harder post degree to get those jobs. If doctors don’t like the money and the immense pensions available and a shorter working life, then I would suggest doing something else. Maybe others would have appreciated the job and opportunities and valued what the state contributed for their expensive training.

Hunters…. Others for the jobs.

@TizerorFizz I don't want to derail the thread but I will respond to your assertions. I think you are overlooking the obvious, which is that in many cases the DC who get through to study medicine are among the very brightest in their school cohorts. In addition, by seventeen they have already demonstrated a work ethic beyond their studies and they would not get through the med school interviews if they couldn't demonstrate good interpersonal skills in a pressurised environment. This combination suggests that they would most likely do very well on alternative career paths and the selection processes which go with them. So, yes they get a 'job for life' but they are generally of a calibre that they don't really need one. I'm also sure they would be capable of working out their own pensions in that alternative universe too. I certainly did. It's quite easy when you earn far more than you need to live. Regarding your other point, it goes without saying that it is very expensive to train doctors but it is not done for altruistic reasons. Society does get a very tangible ROI % from that expenditure (if you count human lives as tangible, of course). Also, I would also say that it is state money much better spent than that which is currently sunk on a whole range of far less useful degrees that are never applied and in some cases are not even fit for purpose for employment and where student finance is taken out for them and never a penny paid back. Of course, the unit cost of funding those courses is far less than the unit cost of training a doctor but when you multiply through, the cost to the state must be a ridiculous waste of money.

I have taught both A'levels and IB. I'm currently teaching IB in an international school and have taught the IB for almost 8 years now. It's great but lots of work. Would she do the full diploma, so TOK, CAS and an EE as well as 6 subjects? It is a lot of work but a great preparation for university.

@opoponax
The people who earn highly in the jobs you quote are often very bright too! Not all the brightest are doctors! These other bright young people have to compete to do PPE and Law at top universities too. At grammars it’s not always the case the doctor wannabes are the best. Others can be gifted and want other careers. It’s still the case that holders of less “useful “ degrees in your view provide the wealth that’s needed to train doctors and pay their salaries. As this country will soon find out as we don’t have enough of them.

@TizerorFizz who said doctors were the brightest? I didn't write that. I said they were "among the very brightest". Big difference. Of course there are other bright DC that choose to do other valid things for other reasons. I'm just saying that if "wannabe" doctors were motivated purely by money and security, there are lots of other areas open to them where the stakes are just career progression and not human lives and where you get to have a lot more control over your own life. Do you honestly think doctors get to a stage where they can kick back and enjoy some gravy train? I would say from experience that is much more the case in other professional areas where you put in all the legwork in the earlier years and it gets easier when you get to the schmoozy level. But hey what do I know, I've only worked in that environment. I'm stopping here as it is derailing the thread and it was started by the OP for a genuine reason.

@Isonthecase - thank you, it's really useful to hear about your experience, which sounds quite unsettling. The college DD would be attending has been doing IB for a while and they do get good results, but I think that would definitely be something to find out more about. She's certainly clear that if she does A Levels, it will be sciences, so she may well decide just to focus on that.

Thanks for your input too, @Smileandtheworldsmileswithyou. She'd do the full thing, yes, which does sound like a lot of work! It sounds like such a good course to me, but ultimately of course it's got to fit the person who is doing it!

My DD sounds a bit like yours @thedoofus and I wish we had the IB option so I feel a bit jealous! It's hard when you are an all-rounder to be absolutely dedicated to one area at such a young age.

In relation to the other conversation, I have no medical background myself, but of the doctors I know (20+ years post graduation), they all had significant pressure/ encouragement from their parents to go into medicine, and some of them didn't even want to do it. So personally I take the idea of knowing your vocation at primary school or whatever with a pinch of salt. Some children will always see certain careers as much more open to them, and that's not necessarily to do with their natural ability or personality.

I think it sounds brilliant @ColouringPencils , and glad DD has the option. I think it's very hard for some kids to narrow down to 3 A Levels. I have a niece who wouldn't suit the IB, but is having real trouble choosing between her many interests.
DD is increasingly sure about the medicine idea and is looking at organising some volunteering and work experience. Still hasn't decided between IB and A Levels, partly because she has been offered a place at a very high achieving state 6th form to do A Levels, which has thrown a curveball into the mix. She is lucky to have two very good options to choose from now, especially given the area we live in, which will qualify her for contextual offers at most universities.

I also meant to say, I hope your DD makes a choice she is happy with!

I've taught both, and been UCAS coordinator for both as well. If she loves a variety of subjects and wants to pursue loads, then IB is great. Its diverse, challenging, and far better preparation ofe university than A Levels. If, however, she knows she wants medicine, and is likely to get the top grades, then three A Levels and using the time to do her job and some serious volunteering is far more likely to pay off. If the IB school is private, then she'd be even better advised to do A Levels at the State school instead; widening participation and contextual offers are far more likely in that setting.

Will she get grades that are as strong doing IB? For most med schools, she will still need really strong Biology and Chemistry scores, as well as maintaining a strong overall score.

Does the sixth form or the college have a better track record of actually getting medicine offers?

I know a local sixth form which is seen as very high achieving, but in recent years has struggled to get anyone into medicine for some reason.

More useful comments - thank you.

Dd says college (IB) and school (A levels) get proportionally similar numbers of students into medical school. College says their IB students get more med school interviews, but roughly equal offers to their A level students. Both are state provision.

DD seems, as far as you can tell from GCSE level study, to be exceptionally academically able. Mock scores are solid 9s, where we know her actual marks they are very high. I think she is fortunate that she probably won't struggle with whatever she decides to do.

I don't know at all and it seems from people who do know, that the focus for Medicine should be A-levels. Seems a bit of a shame though. If IB is more challenging than A-levels, then you would think the medical schools should recognise that?

If medicine is her focus, stay with A levels. If she wants broader education, she can do an extra A level, EPQ etc., She will have an option to drop these extra things if she is struggling in her A levels. The jump from GCSE to A level is massive and a lot of children struggle in the first term.

I'd have liked my DD to do the IB as she was also an all rounder. It seems such a shame to give up humanities and English at 16 - in favour of just sciences and maths - when you're good at those.

The college which does the IB is in another county and would have been an awkward journey. In the end she did maths chemistry and biology and did an epq. She knew she'd definitely pursue sciences at uni, so it seemed fine really to narrow options at that stage.

Someone else we know did the IB and went on to study engineering. In her case, it gave her extra time to mature and decide on direction, as she'd not have chosen the right subjects if she'd had to pick 3 A levels.

I agree it does seem a shame to drop subjects early as we tend to in the UK for three A Levels (though I know for some people that system works really well and they're delighted to focus in on something). I think if DD weren't interested in medicine, it'd seem an easy decision to do the IB, given her general abilities and interests. I feel much better about it now she has what seems like a very good option for studying A Levels if that's what she chooses and it feels more like a win-win situation for her.

There is also the BMAT to consider, and the study time that will need to be devoted to that.

My daughter is a super high achiever too, the decision to do A levels was easy for her as despite A* in all but one subject , for which she received an A, she disliked all the non science ones and was happy to never study them again.

@W0tnow BMAT is going after this year.

My DD is doing the IB and has applied to study medicine. She chose 2 sciences plus philosophy at HL, maths she kept at SL as the HL one is much harder than A levels and pretty full on.

She didn’t have the choice of A levels as we are in Europe and Baccalureat style multi subject qualifications are the norm here, and as she is also applying to local universities and elsewhere in the EU, the IB appears to be more accepted (or more understood maybe?) than A levels outside the U.K.

It is very full on, there are IAs to do for most subjects as well as the extended essay and TOK, which are quite intense on top of the “regular” work but she is well supported by the school and the students often end up better prepared for university, as well as receiving a more rounded education. Plus, as a PP mentioned, it’s very useful to keep up with essay subjects even if you’re doing sciences.

There is not a great deal of time for lots of extra curriculars, be it sports, jobs or volunteering but where we are you can’t volunteer under 18 and the concept of Saturday jobs for 16yo is pretty alien, so no loss there. DD nonetheless manages to keep up with sport twice a week and plays an instrument once a week - this is actively encouraged as part of CAS - so it’s not all that all encompassing.

Is it? I didn’t know that. I only found out about it a couple of weeks ago. So I guess she’ll be the last cohort to do it. Are they replacing it with anything?