Page 13 | Is it true that clever people go to 6th form and people who aren't go to college

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 2022-06-21T20:08:47+00:00

Evening all, It was always drummed into me that after GCSE`s that if you are intelligent you went to or stayed at school and went to 6th form depending on your previous circumstances. But if you weren't good enough you went to college instead. Whats your experience in this area ?

Original poster

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 20/10/2022 17:50

TheMoops · 20/10/2022 12:14

Why is it a dreadful idea ? it can open new possibilities, they might uncover skills they didn't know they had ?

Because not everyone wants or needs to study a vocational or practical subject. There are other ways in helping young people identify their interests and skills. Good careers guidance is key here.
Forcing people to study a vocational subject is not the way to go. There are examples to support the fact this is a bad idea!

Second point must be snobbery.

It's one element but it's far too simplistic to just blame it on snobbery.

What are your examples why it`s a bad idea ?

OP posts:

TheMoops · 20/10/2022 18:20

A number of people have explained why it's a bad idea.

Why don't you read the replies people have taken time to write out and engage with them?

A recent example is the policy for all students in post 16 education to resit their English and Maths GCSEs if they didn't achieve a grade 4 or above. They have to keep resitting until they pass.

Speaking to teachers who deliver this, it is clear it isn't working. Students are resentful and teachers struggle to teach students who are disengaged.

There is no benefit to making some subjects compulsory post 16.

Original poster

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 20/10/2022 18:25

TheMoops · 20/10/2022 18:20

A number of people have explained why it's a bad idea.

Why don't you read the replies people have taken time to write out and engage with them?

A recent example is the policy for all students in post 16 education to resit their English and Maths GCSEs if they didn't achieve a grade 4 or above. They have to keep resitting until they pass.

Speaking to teachers who deliver this, it is clear it isn't working. Students are resentful and teachers struggle to teach students who are disengaged.

There is no benefit to making some subjects compulsory post 16.

Perhaps if the Maths curriculum was changed then we wouldn't have an failures.

Alot of the stuff in GCSE maths has no application in the real world.

For me it should be 100% arithmetic skills

OP posts:

TheMoops · 20/10/2022 18:28

You have a lot of strong opinions on the education system. What experience and training do you have?

Original poster

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 20/10/2022 18:30

TheMoops · 20/10/2022 18:28

You have a lot of strong opinions on the education system. What experience and training do you have?

11 Years in primary/secondary education.

3 Years FE college

3 Years HE

OP posts:

pointythings · 20/10/2022 18:33

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 20/10/2022 18:30

11 Years in primary/secondary education.

3 Years FE college

3 Years HE

Show quote history

So no training and the same experience everyone else has...

TheMoops · 20/10/2022 18:33

As a teacher?

Your responses are very odd for someone who apparently has so much varied experience of working in education.

TheMoops · 20/10/2022 18:34

So no training and the same experience everyone else has...

Hahaha of course!!! Well spotted 😂😂

Original poster

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 20/10/2022 18:35

TheMoops · 20/10/2022 18:33

As a teacher?

Your responses are very odd for someone who apparently has so much varied experience of working in education.

Well obviously not as a teacher.

But i have experienced the education cycle.

I have trained people at work though

OP posts:

TheMoops · 20/10/2022 18:43

Well obviously not as a teacher.

Obviously

But i have experienced the education cycle.

And? It doesn't make you an expert on pedagogy and curriculum development. Lots of people who have qualifications and who are experienced in working in the education sector have responded to your many questions yet you ignore them. Why?

I have trained people at work though

I'm not sure how that is relevant.

pointythings · 20/10/2022 19:07

I've trained people at work too and I hold several training qualifications.

I don't however suffer from the delusion that I have the panacea to solve all the problems in the education system.

I mean, you haven't even thought about the logistics. I just looked up my nearest FE college. It offers no A levels at all. So if you were to close all the 6th forms in my area, there would be no A level provision. Not for anyone. The college is very popular, the site is limited in size - it would cost tens of millions to relocate the collage in expanded form so that it could offer an expanded curriculum that included A levels. And then you'd have to replicate that cost across whole swathes of the UK.

You'd also end up increasing the distance students have to travel, which would carry a financial and environmental cost as well as increasing the length of the school day. Teaching staff who currently work in 6th forms would have to relocate to work in these expanded colleges - many would need to move house, and in my patch that would mean moving into an area where housing would be unaffordable for this staff group. Many of these teachers would leave the profession.

Am I getting through to you yet, OP? And I haven't even reminded you of the ethical implications of forcing young people post 16 into courses they are not interested in at the exact time when they are supposed to be starting the process of becoming adults and taking responsibility for their own choices - your mandatory vocational course would turn them all into Yr 9s again.

I still think your idea comes from some form of resentment towards those students who are academically talented enough to do A levels and go on to university.

Original poster

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 28/10/2022 19:57

pointythings · 20/10/2022 19:07

I've trained people at work too and I hold several training qualifications.

I don't however suffer from the delusion that I have the panacea to solve all the problems in the education system.

I mean, you haven't even thought about the logistics. I just looked up my nearest FE college. It offers no A levels at all. So if you were to close all the 6th forms in my area, there would be no A level provision. Not for anyone. The college is very popular, the site is limited in size - it would cost tens of millions to relocate the collage in expanded form so that it could offer an expanded curriculum that included A levels. And then you'd have to replicate that cost across whole swathes of the UK.

You'd also end up increasing the distance students have to travel, which would carry a financial and environmental cost as well as increasing the length of the school day. Teaching staff who currently work in 6th forms would have to relocate to work in these expanded colleges - many would need to move house, and in my patch that would mean moving into an area where housing would be unaffordable for this staff group. Many of these teachers would leave the profession.

Am I getting through to you yet, OP? And I haven't even reminded you of the ethical implications of forcing young people post 16 into courses they are not interested in at the exact time when they are supposed to be starting the process of becoming adults and taking responsibility for their own choices - your mandatory vocational course would turn them all into Yr 9s again.

I still think your idea comes from some form of resentment towards those students who are academically talented enough to do A levels and go on to university.

I did go to university so you argument falls flat.

Also why can`t someone do say A level English and lean bricklaying or electrician skills at the same time ?

OP posts:

pointythings · 28/10/2022 20:49

Also why can`t someone do say A level English and lean bricklaying or electrician skills at the same time ?

Because the vast majority will not want to and therefore forcing them will waste their time at school and achieve precisely nothing.

The whole point of post 16 education is that we take a step back and allow young people to map out their own future. We can communicate and support, but if we force then we might as well not bother. We would only end up with a lot of disenchanted young people who feel they have been controlled and patronised, and we would have wasted their precious final two years of education with material that is unwanted and irrelevant to them.

Some young people are naturally inclined towards academia and they should be allowed to follow their heart. Others are inclined towards practical/vocational pathways and they should be allowed the same thing. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

I not you have also done absolutely nothing to address the logistical upheaval your suggestion would cause if implemented.

Original poster

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 28/10/2022 20:59

pointythings · 28/10/2022 20:49

Also why can`t someone do say A level English and lean bricklaying or electrician skills at the same time ?

Because the vast majority will not want to and therefore forcing them will waste their time at school and achieve precisely nothing.

The whole point of post 16 education is that we take a step back and allow young people to map out their own future. We can communicate and support, but if we force then we might as well not bother. We would only end up with a lot of disenchanted young people who feel they have been controlled and patronised, and we would have wasted their precious final two years of education with material that is unwanted and irrelevant to them.

Some young people are naturally inclined towards academia and they should be allowed to follow their heart. Others are inclined towards practical/vocational pathways and they should be allowed the same thing. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

I not you have also done absolutely nothing to address the logistical upheaval your suggestion would cause if implemented.

I think your view point is very narrow minded.

You are giving the impression that anyone who want`s to do anything vocational is some kind of knuckle dragging Neanderthal.

There are plenty of people out in the country who do manual jobs but are very intelligent.

In terms of logistical issues well if say a college has one big site in a town, simply have smaller satellite locations that way teaching recourses can be spread around

OP posts:

titchy · 28/10/2022 21:14

Also why can`t someone do say A level English and lean bricklaying or electrician skills at the same time ?

I think OP is on a mission to equip everyone with plumbing/electrician/plastering etc skills so that there will be no demand for plumbers, plasterers etc in the future cos everyone will be able to to those things themselves!

pointythings · 28/10/2022 21:15

Is that what you've got? Personal attacks?

Nowhere have I suggested that people who choose a vocational pathway are less intelligent - that is your spin. I am merely pointing out that different people have different interests and aptitudes, and that forcing them into pathways that do not suit those interests and aptitudes is likely to be counterproductive as well as unethical. Just out of interest, would you also be in favour of forcing those who choose a vocational path to do at least one academic A level?

I would have no objection at all to someone doing two A levels and a vocational subject if that was what they wanted to do, but forcing that on a young person post 16 is another matter. You have still not addressed the matter of enabling young people post 16 to have some agency over their course choices and their future - when exactly did you want to stop dictating to them?

On the logistical front, having satellite locations in the same town would solve nothing. It would only add to the cost and it would also add an element of transport as well as making timetabling far more difficult. It would also make life extremely difficult for disabled students (and yes, one of my DC is disabled, highly academic and at university so I know what that looks like).

What benefits do you see to forcing an academic young person to take an electrician course they do not want to do? They will have no interest in it. They will wish they were doing that third A level. They will do less well than someone who actually wants to be there and with places limited, this will mean someone wanting to do that course may miss out.

Your idea is a bad idea, plain and simple. Undesirable, unworkable, and downright stupid.

pointythings · 28/10/2022 21:16

titchy · 28/10/2022 21:14

Also why can`t someone do say A level English and lean bricklaying or electrician skills at the same time ?

I think OP is on a mission to equip everyone with plumbing/electrician/plastering etc skills so that there will be no demand for plumbers, plasterers etc in the future cos everyone will be able to to those things themselves!

My most excellent local plumber is just going to love that.

Original poster

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 28/10/2022 21:22

titchy · 28/10/2022 21:14

Also why can`t someone do say A level English and lean bricklaying or electrician skills at the same time ?

I think OP is on a mission to equip everyone with plumbing/electrician/plastering etc skills so that there will be no demand for plumbers, plasterers etc in the future cos everyone will be able to to those things themselves!

Well no that's just 3 examples.

It could include other things like hair, heath and social care, getting a hgv licence

OP posts:

Oblomov22 · 28/10/2022 21:23

Round here in Surrey most of the schools have 6th forms. They seem more classical and old fashioned - you do 3 or 4 A'level's, maybe one a Btec. Colleges offer more choice, a wider variety. Schools have higher targets to actually reach to get in, so they can take the crème of Students with high GCSE's.

Original poster

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 28/10/2022 21:26

pointythings · 28/10/2022 21:15

Is that what you've got? Personal attacks?

Nowhere have I suggested that people who choose a vocational pathway are less intelligent - that is your spin. I am merely pointing out that different people have different interests and aptitudes, and that forcing them into pathways that do not suit those interests and aptitudes is likely to be counterproductive as well as unethical. Just out of interest, would you also be in favour of forcing those who choose a vocational path to do at least one academic A level?

I would have no objection at all to someone doing two A levels and a vocational subject if that was what they wanted to do, but forcing that on a young person post 16 is another matter. You have still not addressed the matter of enabling young people post 16 to have some agency over their course choices and their future - when exactly did you want to stop dictating to them?

On the logistical front, having satellite locations in the same town would solve nothing. It would only add to the cost and it would also add an element of transport as well as making timetabling far more difficult. It would also make life extremely difficult for disabled students (and yes, one of my DC is disabled, highly academic and at university so I know what that looks like).

What benefits do you see to forcing an academic young person to take an electrician course they do not want to do? They will have no interest in it. They will wish they were doing that third A level. They will do less well than someone who actually wants to be there and with places limited, this will mean someone wanting to do that course may miss out.

Your idea is a bad idea, plain and simple. Undesirable, unworkable, and downright stupid.

I wasn`t being personal.

I just find your views abit narrow and NIMBY.

I think the option for 2 A levels and 1 vocation is a good idea.

And it could have other benefits as it could help in different areas of study.

Also if there are satellite locations then that would mean more locations so less strain on transportation, less harm on the environment.

Also they would have to cater for people with disabilities anyway or they would be breaking the law.

OP posts:

Original poster

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 28/10/2022 21:29

Oblomov22 · 28/10/2022 21:23

Round here in Surrey most of the schools have 6th forms. They seem more classical and old fashioned - you do 3 or 4 A'level's, maybe one a Btec. Colleges offer more choice, a wider variety. Schools have higher targets to actually reach to get in, so they can take the crème of Students with high GCSE's.

That shouldn't be the case.

OP posts:

pointythings · 28/10/2022 21:34

@Oblomov22 that's interesting. Regional variations are definitely a thing. In my patch, 6th forms are a mix. Our big college is really focused on the vocational side, so you don't need 7 - 9 to get in for everything. Our local secondary's 6th form offers three streams (vocational, blended, A level only) and each has its own criteria. Because it is part of the secondary school, there is flexibility in admissions if someone has a bad day or extenuating circumstances in exams.

But nobody is forced to take a course they do not want!

titchy · 28/10/2022 21:36

It could include other things like hair, heath and social care, getting a hgv licence

Well the same thing applies doesn't it. I'd bet most hairdressers, plumbers, nail technicians etc would be pretty pissed off to have an occupation that no one wanted to employ because either they had the skills themselves or their mate did.

And maybe find another Friday night hobby seeing as you don't actually debate, you just revive this thread when you're bored.

Original poster

thistimeiknowitsforreal · 28/10/2022 21:39

titchy · 28/10/2022 21:36

It could include other things like hair, heath and social care, getting a hgv licence

Well the same thing applies doesn't it. I'd bet most hairdressers, plumbers, nail technicians etc would be pretty pissed off to have an occupation that no one wanted to employ because either they had the skills themselves or their mate did.

And maybe find another Friday night hobby seeing as you don't actually debate, you just revive this thread when you're bored.

So people who do those professions can`t have an academic side.

You are very close minded is this the 1950`s ?

OP posts:

titchy · 28/10/2022 21:39

2 A levels and one vocational isn't enough for uni, so your plan stops anyone going to uni, AND makes sure that vocational skills are no longer sought after!