A-level choices STEM subjects (ish)

[mizu]

DD2 is applying to her school's 6th form and is looking to do engineering or similar at uni.

She is currently looking at doing maths, physics, economics and product design BUT is unsure of doing physics as she says that with the maths it will be really hard.

She says she'll probably do it as most engineering courses will want it.

DD1 is already in the 6th form doing humanities subjects and is definitely following in my footsteps but DD2 is on ground I'm not familiar with at all.

I think my question is does she need the physics? I guess it depends on the kind of course she does, maybe she won't want to do engineering in a couple of years time!

Is this a good group of subjects? She loves product design GCSE and is heading for a 9. She loves business and likes maths and does well in it, expecting an 8.

She also really likes history.

Any advice gratefully received

Does she have to do four subjects? For engineering I would say physics is quite important, and with maths each one will make the other easier (mechanics in maths very similar to forces in physics). If possible, I would drop the economics.

Yes, they have to do 4 A-levels with the choice of dropping one at the end of year 12.

Definitely needs physics. I’ve done a higher engineering apprenticeship and wish I’d done more stem based subjects at school to help me.
It is very maths and physics based. I struggled with maths at school but maintained my grades to stay in the top group and it gets even harder in engineering but if you put the work in it’s very rewarding.

Agree with others; also my understanding is that there is a fair amount of overlap with maths and physics. In DS2's year I think only one student did physics without doing maths.

Economics and maths is a lot of maths if she is not keen on maths. No uni course will demand economics tho as many schools don't offer it, so that one is less useful.

TBH tho as someone said on your other thread, if she does not like physics then maybe an engineering degree and career is not the best plan?

Something like this (as an example)
www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/courses/details/product-design-engineering-meng/54933716
Doesn't need Physics if you lean more towards Product Design.

But then you'd rule out Mechanical Engineering and other disciplines.

Maybe try to narrow down a bit on which bits of Engineering she really likes and would see herself doing in the future.

stubiff thanks - yes she definitely needs to narrow down. Says she will do A-level physics, she's just not a super whizz at it. Predicted 7 / 8 though so not too bad !!!

Hiya, I'm a systems engineer and STEM ambassador at local secondary schools. Naturally the "what do I study?" question is the most asked.

Yes to maths and yes to physics. She could also consider maths and chemistry, for a slightly different take.

The other 2 subjects, she should do something she enjoys. If they don't enjoy it, they lose heart. They're very emotional about their choices at that age.

Art subjects can actually be very demanding of their time, because they're all coursework based, but it can be a nice break from all the numbers. Photography and Design courses would both give her some great experience in software that leads effortlessly into CAD, which is something she will use at uni and beyond in engineering.

History is a fine choice. There is no need to stick rigidly to just STEM subjects.

In her second year, she will almost certainly drop one of the subjects. (As she moves from A/S to A2 Level study). If she's still set on Engineering she will need to keep the maths and physics. But if she changes her mind and wants to become a history professor instead, that's fine too! Just be supportive and prepare for her to change her mind.

Her grades are fantastic so you could look at some high end engineering courses at uni. Loughborough is very good, for example. Take a look at their entry requirements and student testimonials to get an idea of what path other kids have taken.

I studied maths at one of the Russell Group unis.

You can Google "STEM Ambassadors" for more info from other people like me. Also check out the Women's Engineering Society for great resources.

Really wonderful to hear that a smart and capable young woman like your daughter wants to join our ranks. STEM is a very rewarding and exciting field.

Always happy to chat more. :)

Peeache thank you so much for this very useful advice. Will definitely look at your suggestions.

It is good to have advice and info from someone with such specific experience.

@mizu Ds1 did both physics and maths plus further maths and computer science. His advice is that right from the beginning utilise the teachers. Usually there is some form of contact time sometimes at the end of the day where students can talk to their teachers if they need any help with any content.

The way Ds was taught maths meant they had a solution laid out that they could refer back to to check that they could repeat the maths questions with different values. There is an overlap with maths and physics although there is less maths in A level physics than in GCSE.

Ds says if you keep on top of the work and go back and check your ability again to repeat what you did before (same question, cover the answer, did you get it right?) then you will feel confident in your knowledge and won't be phased.

He only did combined science not 3 separate sciences and found physics okay but at some points struggled to understand it but worked at it to solve it there and then. He also asked his teacher when he was stuck. He did really well in his A levels.

Onthebench so useful, thank you. I will show this to my daughter

Former Russell Group STEM School Admissions Tutor here. I heartily agree with the choice of Physics! Many Engin programmes require Maths and don’t require Physics. Formally this may be correct, but the intuition and thinking patterns learnt in A Level Physics are hugely, hugely important for the Engineering curriculum. Students who did not have A Level Physics begin University Engineering at a disadvantage, albeit an informal one.

I am not a fan of four A levels: these pupils are unnecessarily handicapped against the large majority who take only three. If your DD will be dropping one for Y13 it hardly matters but given she loves Product Design (also of relevance for Engineering) and is concerned about too much Maths, I see Economics as the odd one out.

Or would she be interested in Biology, Chemistry or something totally different like History/Geography/Psychology/??? for the fourth? If it may be for a year only she can have a last go at an outside interest.

poetryandwine another post I will share with DD. So useful to hear from people who are in that field.

Yes I hear you on the 4 A-levels thing. My other DD is year12 and already knows which A-level she is going to drop.

@mizu
My DH is just about to retire from an engineering consultancy he built up from scratch to over 100 staff. They are civil/structural/environmental engineers. He has obviously worked with a lot of engineers in those fields over time. So in this house engineering has been a topic of conversation and work for a very long time now.

I suggest your DD looks at the Engineering Council www.engc.co.uk to get an idea of all the branches of engineering. Then look at the web sites of the Institutions. So Institute of Civil Engineers etc etc. See what they say about what their engineers do and what appeals to her. Are they are running any taster days.

Choice of a third subject (Physics and Maths are a must really) can really help with the chosen area of engineering. Geography helps with environmental engineering. Product Design with Design Engineering, Computer Science too etc. However there’s nothing wrong with doing Art, History or Economics. If she goes away from Engineering, other subjects are useful!

Once she has narrowed down a branch of engineering, look at the best universities for this discipline. As she’s not doing FM, don’t start with Cambridge or Imperial! Look at solid red brick/RG/ former Poly universities and be prepared to look at BEng. Lots of DC on here will go for MEng but she might be happier with a more practical course at a Polytechnic. DH says a number of their courses in his field are very good.

Then try and speak to engineers working in a field she likes. See if there are consultancies nearby for work experience. Try and flesh out what she really likes about engineering. Is it product design or the big stuff like roads and bridges? Or cars or planes? Look at the courses at well known engineering universities like Sheffield, Southampton, Bristol, Loughborough, Manchester etc snd see what they offer. Then look at grades required and be realistic. It’s a well paid career if you are any good at it. DH has had to add business skills into his life too! Engineers are rarely just engineers. Writing reports, liaising with clients, managing teams, working to budgets, employing people and HR and even getting the work in the first place are all skills that might be needed! So honing other skills is never a bad idea. Lots of engineers don’t write well DH has found. Or struggle to explain solutions to clients. So think about all of this - and good luck.

tizerorfizz thank you,some really great advice. Another post I will share with my daughter.

She had an exam yesterday as her teacher has put her and a couple of others in for an Arkwright scholarship which looks interesting. She's not brilliant at drawing though so is not sure she'll be successful but it's all good experience!

Could she add in either Geology or environmental science- I teach both and find a substantial number of my physics students go into geophysics or geo engineering. It’s also a less pure subject so less numerically demanding.

Ps my husband is an engineer and now works in water engineering- dams, bridges etc for a big multinational engineering consultancy. It’s actually less numerically demanding than his degree! He did geology alongside maths and physics

I don't understand why some schools insist on doing 4 A levels still. DD studied 4 subjects in year 12 and was on her knees with exhaustion. She had very few free periods and spent hours on homework that she had no time to do at school. She dropped a subject after AS levels and found year 13 easier as a result.

IMO the only advantage with starting with four is that you can drop a subject you are struggling with.

Is this a very selective school?

Not a selective school. A state school.

Unfortunately they don't offer geology or the like - that sounds a really interesting A-level though.

@mizu
Geography is great for environmental engineering. Env Sci and Geology are not offered in many schools. However most env engineers start off as civil engineers.

@poetryandwine and @PeeAche have you come across maths schools in your work? These focus a lot of maths and physics. What's your take on them?

I haven’t, to the best of my knowledge. I find this thread intriguing!

DD2 is now considering Chemistry instead of Physics so, maths, chemistry, product design and economics.

@mizu
I would say chemistry greatly cuts down engineering options. Other than chemical engineering. Product design, as opposed to a recognised engineering degree, won’t really care. However Physics keeps more doors open. Did she look at the web sites I suggested?

If she wants an engineering degree, physics is a pre requisite a level. You can look on uni requirements if you want confirmation. Competition is steep, so maths and physics is a good start, would personally recommend another science if shes sure she wants engineering. 6tg form is a long time, with lots of thoughts about the future. Is it possible she might change her mind?