A levels for law

[70smillie]

DD has straight 9s at GCSE. She's very keen on law and plans on doing History, English Lit & Geography at A level.

She's thinking about Oxbridge (I have reservations about this due to personality type but haven' expressed).

Anyway someone has suggested geography won't make her stand out if she decides to aim for Oxbridge and her 3rd A level should be something more obviously challenging on paper like maths or a language. DD isn't really concerned about geography, her favourites are Eng lit & history and then geography because she finds it easiest.

Assuming school can facilitate a change her choices now seem to be.

History, English lit, Maths - she could also then add further maths if there's a space.
History, English lit, Spanish or Latin
History, English lit, Geography.

Can anyone help her ? She's been looking online but is none the wiser.

Any advice

I would say that FM is really only fir massive maths fans, which I infer your dd is not. Maths is a great A level tho. MFL also very good and less popular. MFL is my subject, I love to see students choosing it. It's not easy tho (well no A level is) but very rewarding and interesting. No idea re law at uni tho or whether she needs to stand out in terms of A level choices. Passion for her proposed uni subject and evidence of that probs more important.

I think history, english and geography are excellent choices for law. No need for maths unless you really want to do it.

I have no idea why geography is considered to be a soft option or mickey mouse subject - it was always on the facilitating subjects list and with climate change etc I would have thought it was one of the most important subjects to study. And if she finds it easy, then do it. High grades are more important than subject choices for law - and her subject choices are really solid.

A language would be good but only if she can get a higher grade in it than she would for geography.

And don't waste time on four A levels.

What’d you mean about reservations because of personality? You couldn’t find a wider variety of personalities than at an Oxbridge college - that’s part of what makes it fun.

As someone who has almost cried in court when a judge sent us out to re-think our figures - the stronger her maths qualifications, the better she’ll fare in Law, both in job-seeking and in practice.

Who is this "someone" who suggested that Geography wasn't suitable?
I don't think they know what they are talking about as it will be fine.

She should take the subjects that she really wants to do for A level and is likely to obtain the best results in.

She should stick with her original choices and this person should back off.

But nothing you’ve mentioned would be a bad choice, OP.

It is useful to have valuable knowledge and skills to take to legal practice. One of my oldest friends had a career as an aeronautical engineer before taking up Law. She had her pick of firms.

Thanks for all the replies. The 'someone' is an Oxbridge graduate in the extended family and general all round busybody.

The reason she's getting a bit flustered is in her mind she pretty much decided her A level choices in year 8 and hasn't wavered. Since she got her results, which were as predicted, she's suddenly realised she has a lot of choices - she didn't really want to talk about it earlier. Since I posted this she's suddenly said she doesn't want to drop maths and likes Geography more than English because although she's very good at writing essays she hates reading the classics!

I think early on in secondary she really excelled in essay subjects but she worked hard at maths and sciences and its taken til now for her to realise she enjoys them and is having a panic.

She now thinks Maths, History & Geography - she mentioned the climate/environmental side being more relevant to life.

She would do better with 3 good A-levels that include geography than 2 good a-levels and a mediocre maths one. I'd stick with it personally. I'm a current law student, don't have a single a-level but on a conversion course. The biggest paths to success are getting legal experience and volunteering I really wouldn't sacrifice that for an a-level that she's not as invested in x

Geo/History/ English is an excellent combo for law .. all
Facilitating subjects - go for what she is good at .. if she gets an average grade for maths it might be difficult to hit the grade requirements . Law grade offers from Russell Group unis rarely fall below an A* / A combo

@70smillie

Thanks for all the replies. The 'someone' is an Oxbridge graduate in the extended family and general all round busybody.

The reason she's getting a bit flustered is in her mind she pretty much decided her A level choices in year 8 and hasn't wavered. Since she got her results, which were as predicted, she's suddenly realised she has a lot of choices - she didn't really want to talk about it earlier. Since I posted this she's suddenly said she doesn't want to drop maths and likes Geography more than English because although she's very good at writing essays she hates reading the classics!

I think early on in secondary she really excelled in essay subjects but she worked hard at maths and sciences and its taken til now for her to realise she enjoys them and is having a panic.

She now thinks Maths, History & Geography - she mentioned the climate/environmental side being more relevant to life.

My nephew has just got into Oxford for Law and has History, English Literature and Drama!

Any of her chosen combinations sound fine.

She should do what she enjoys. There are no set a-levels for Law, so covering subjects she has an interest in and potential to do well in is the most important thing.

Why are there so often interfering types who are sure they know everything when it’s likely they don’t? Are they an admissions tutor for an Oxbridge college? I don’t think there’s any need to “stand out” with a level choices and tbh there will be a lot of people with Maths A Level.
Having excellent a level predictions and having a passion for your subject is more likely to help you to get firstly an interview and then possibly an offer

I would honestly ask her to have a hard think about why she wants to study law. I fell into a job in law and went down the legal exec route but the four training contracts on offer at the firm where I worked attracted over 500 applications every year and paid terribly (18k in 2015). My own experience was that you were constantly threatened with losing your job and exceeding targets was met with huge increase in targets (my record was a 65% increase in one year having covered with 12 hour days and weekend work after a colleague was fired. I had exceeded my target by 60%). There is nothing worse than working in an office where they have an employment lawyer on hand to find a way to get rid of you if you were deemed of no use. I worked myself to the bone trying to prove I was worthy before realising they were taking the piss. The colleagues who had law degrees rather than falling into the jobs are equally disillusioned but feel like they can't leave having invested so much time and money so keep jumping from firm to firm.

For what it's worth they only cared about LPC results. One of the partners did an undergrad degree in archaeology before doing a conversion course 🤷🏻‍♀️

Are they an admissions tutor for an Oxbridge college?

I’m not. One of my closest friends is; and half my closest associates are. I’m merely academically attached to an Oxbridge college. And a former lawyer. (With an Oxbridge law degree.)

Anyway, all the combinations the OP has listed sound perfectly fine for the purposes of getting in. But having a Maths A’Level, with a high grade, could be particularly helpful in seeking a training contract at the Bar, especially if she’s interested in commercial work. (I also worked briefly at the Bar Council sifting pupillage applications, post qualification. ) I know less about solicitors’ firms.)

But obviously a poor A’ Level Maths grade would be no use at all. She should certainly take the relevant subjects that she’s likely to do best in.

As a law student about tp start her first year at a top 3 Law school in the UK. I can assure you Oxbridge only want you to take what is written on their website as requirements. They do not care for a fourth subject, rather a well-rounded student with adequate experience in the field, a real interest in the subject and a great interview.

By putting so much pressure on your daughter to do a "harder" A-level you are just setting her up for failure in reality. There is no need to do unnecessary unhelpful subjects like maths for LLB. If anything she should be focusing on getting A* in just the three.

Here is the Oxford website and it has the requirements
www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses-listing/law-jurisprudence

Perhaps you read in a hurry, aroobmanzoor? There’s absolutely nothing in either of the OP’s two posts that suggest she is putting any pressure on her daughter to study any particular subject.

Another lawyer here saying she’s better to do the three she likes and get three A*s than try to do maths and get a B.

Having said that I’ve dealt with a lot of maths in my career and would have found it limiting if I’d stopped doing maths completely at age 16

Does her school offer core maths which is the equivalent of an AS? If so then I’d do that on top of her three ALevels

My daughter did English, history and government in politics

Why does she want to do law? Does she want to be a solicitor or a barrister?

I would say it’s a very competitive field and very few make it to a pupillage or training contract. When you are working with smaller regional or high street firms the pay is shit and quite frankly the training not much better, but competition for the major law firms is fierce and even having a first is no guarantee. Plus the work life balance is hard. However thr pay and training is excellent.

Having watched my daughter go through it, I’d say make sure she knows what’s ahead. My daughter was lucky and got a training contract as she wishes to be a commercial litigation lawyer, and with one of the biggest global law firms but many of her cohorts, who also scored firsts, from her highly ranked Russel group uni, simply didn’t.

Law is not an easy route and very over subscribed.

DS1 is doing English Lit, History and Economics and will also do core maths outside of school. But he isn't going to do law as his undergraduate degree.

He definitely wants to be a lawyer and has been to court with me quite a few times now. But he is going to do a different subject at university and then do the conversion.

For what it's worth they only cared about LPC results. One of the partners did an undergrad degree in archaeology before doing a conversion course 🤷🏻‍♀️

This is poor advice. It isn't true that law firms only care about LPC results at all and most trainees will have secured their training contract before they have their LPC result. Law firms will very much look at your degree result, the university you went to and your A Level results.

It is however true that there is no preference given to law graduates over graduates in other subjects who did a conversion (and in fact the conversion students may have something more to offer in some cases).

Another lawyer view here (although I'm 20 years PQE now so take my advice with a pinch of salt, I may be out of date) and I agree with those who say it's more important to have three good a levels than 2 x A's and a B in maths.

That said I don't know how much she enjoys maths...? I did English lit, economics, physics and maths. During my working life no one has ever been interested in my a levels but I do find my maths a level extremely useful especially as I'm in house so my work is quite varied.

I would say adding maths will be really useful for her future career but only if she likes it and is very good at it. I got an A* at GCSE but struggled with a level, I got an A in the end but only after private tutoring, it didn't come naturally to me by that point.

Any of those A levels are fine for Oxbridge law - with the caveat that an A* in Geography or English may be more useful than an A in Maths - for university entrance purposes, that is.

Does she want to study law or is she keen on law as a career? The two have fairly little in common. If the latter, then would she enjoy a History degree and a conversion? Her training firm would fund the conversion.

I read law, having selected it on the basis that it sounded interesting and might earn me some good money one day. Reality was that I found most of it tediously dull, and didn’t end up entering the profession anyway. There’s a lot to be said for choosing a subject that you know you enjoy.

My nephew is about to go to Glasgow to study law.
He got 3 A* in politics, history and RS.
He had an interview for Oxford and was told in the first interview that his level 7 in GCSE maths was below par.
He was also turned down by Durham, who told him his application wasn’t strong enough. No idea if that was to do with his maths result, though.