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Further education

You'll find discussions about A Levels and universities on our Further Education forum.

Advice Please... Hysterical DD & Shattered Confidence Over Upcoming College Course

20 replies

SingingInTheShithouse · 05/08/2021 15:58

DD18 is to start an A&D foundation course in September. She's just finished A levels & this was meant to be a bit of a year out to decide what she wants to do with herself career wise & more points towards Uni.

She was very interest in Psychology, but lockdown & a personality clash with one of her teachers has left her sure she's going to fail & not even sure she wants to do it anymore p. At least that's what we thought from what was said at the time. She's very unlikely to fail, given that her other teacher told us she is amazing at it & the best student they've had in over 20 years, Oxford offered & turned down by DD etc

More recently she's been telling people she's thinking of going into fashion & textiles, which we were concerned about as in reality it won't suit her. It's my trade & I used to recruit too & she just doesn't have the passion for it needed, nor the people skills etc, won't let me teach her anything either & her sewing machine is just gathering dust. Plus a disability will make it a bloody hard career choice for her. So we were actually worried about this change of direction & had hoped she'd stick with psychology, which will give her part time career options too. Fashion won't.

Only now she's having a complete hysterical breakdown as I've pushed for information as to what she's doing about the pre course work she has been given. She says she doesn't want to do the course, never did. & I've pushed her into it & she isn't "the child prodigy" I expected her to be. Mon of this is true & I don't know where the hell she gets this from😟. She does have a significant natural talent, which college have obviously spotted in her limited portfolio, but is very out of practice. I do wonder if her avoiding art is in part due to the bullying she experienced for being so good at it, winning contests, G&T etc in primary. She was hysterical over doing a portfolio to get in to college too.

We are fairly certain she has autism, but isn't diagnosed as she halted the diagnosis process herself just when we were finally starting to get somewhere. She does have other linked diagnosis disabilities/issues though

She keeps us in the dark about all college stuff & it requires arguments to get any information at all & I'm just exhausted by it all.

This was meant to be a fun year out, with extra Uni points & a difference in experience to help her decide what she wants to do. It was never forced on her, she chose it. I think pulling out now is she feels out of her depth. A college group chat has shattered her confidence further as she says she just can't compete with the talent she is seeing & can't draw ... she very much can draw, but needs to practice, which she just isn't doing

Really think it's more about panic & shattered confidence than not wanting to do it, but even though her dad & I are both well placed to help her with developing her skill set as we are both ex art students with arts careers, she refuses to engage with either of us at all.

She's nearly 19 now, so it's really hard to have input with her college, especially when she is so fiercely independent but not booody coping with sorting out herself

I don't even know if college will have back up for this sort of thing? Do they ? & would it be weird & undermine her if I contacted them on her behalf

I'm so upset for her, but just can't get through, or even talk to her about it without full blown hysterical meltdowns & untrue accusations

In the mean time time is creeping on & she's sticking her head in the sand, but is clearly very stressed by it

She's owned up today that the reason she changed her mind about psychology is because she's useless as it & will fail. According to her she's now useless at art & everything else too. Yet we've been told time & again that she's one of those rare people who will do exceptionally well in whatever she puts her mind to, because she brilliant when focused on something.

WTAF do I do. How do I help her when she won't let us & just screams false accusations at me when I try to ask her how we can best support herSad

OP posts:
GrasswillbeGreener · 05/08/2021 19:25

Oh I can't read and not try to write something! The one thing I've always wanted for my children is for them to make their own choices; my younger one (just 16) has recently implied he only ever tells me what he thinks I want to hear which is incredibly frustrating when I have been explicitly trying to find out what he wants/prefers in different contexts since he was 10.

My DD is the same age as yours and, although she's decided confidently what she wants to study, it doesn't entirely fit with a lot of the things she seems to best enjoy doing. We've little idea at the moment where her life is leading :) She's ended up with a job overseas for a gap year and is I think already enjoying the independence. (ASD also in the picture in our household)

Do you think your daughter would cope with a "clean sheet" conversation? "Suppose we forget all about choices that have been made so far and start fresh. What would you most like to be doing with your time over the next month / year / 5 years? What do you need to feel good about yourself?" Maybe this needs to be introduced as something for her to do on paper, maybe she'd prefer to talk it through. Perhaps the idea of this exploration can be mentioned but actually do it once she's got her results next week?

Very very best wishes for finding a "way in" to helping your daughter find her own way forward.

Faircastle · 05/08/2021 23:05

her other teacher told us she is amazing at it & the best student they've had in over 20 years

we've been told time & again that she's one of those rare people who will do exceptionally well in whatever she puts her mind to

This illustrates the risks of focusing on ability when praising pupils, rather than praising more specific efforts which they have control over.

Being told you have exceptional promise brings pressure to live up to this. It sounds as though she has developed a fear of failure and has decided that the only alternative open to her is not to try at all.

Faircastle · 05/08/2021 23:15

I suggest she waits to see what grades she gets next week. She could then reassess her options, which could include applying in the next cycle to start a course in 2022, and taking a year out from studying (and the pressure to achieve that she has come to associate with it).

Bumpsadaisie · 05/08/2021 23:18

She received an offer from Oxford and turned them down? Is that right?

Bumpsadaisie · 05/08/2021 23:20

I get a sense of immense pressure to rush and decide right away and that the stakes are ridiculously high.

Reality is she can have a year or even two years off, get a job locally, take a deep breath and think about what she does actually want. There i no rush.

SingingInTheShithouse · 06/08/2021 11:23

Thanks everyone. Sorry for the slow reply, I ended up with a doozy of a migraine that kept me awake half the night.

Do you think your daughter would cope with a "clean sheet" conversation? "Suppose we forget all about choices that have been made so far and start fresh. What would you most like to be doing with your time over the next month / year / 5 years? What do you need to feel good about yourself?" Maybe this needs to be introduced as something for her to do on paper, maybe she'd prefer to talk it through. Perhaps the idea of this exploration can be mentioned but actually do it once she's got her results next week?

This is great advice, thank you. I think from further conversation/run ins with her late last night, she's way more stressed about impending A Level results than I realised. Up to now she's insisted she was okay. Didn't expect to fail anything, but did downgrade her likely grades to just scraping by, but with the extra Uni points gained from doing this A&D course, she would still have plenty of options Uni wise, so she sounded quite level headed about it. Clearly not the case last night though🤦‍♀️

Being told you have exceptional promise brings pressure to live up to this. It sounds as though she has developed a fear of failure and has decided that the only alternative open to her is not to try at all.

You've absolutely hit the nail on the head there, I think "you're so scared to fail, you won't even try, how is that sensible" has practically become my catchphrase with her.

Though the pressure is all from her. We have always said that trying your hardest is the number one most important thing & any success is just a bonus. We've always played down the G&T bit & concentrated on effort & she mostly wasn't aware of it. Though obviously she was at times with school if she was out of class doing G&T enrichment stuff.

She's always been fiercely competitive though, but not to win over on others, she just sees anything less than the highest marks as failure & puts ridiculous pressure on herself.

She received an offer from Oxford and turned them down? Is that right

Sort of. Her teacher had contacts there who she had discussed DD with & they were apparently very keen to see her with view to offering her a place. DD was horrified & felt it was a really bad fit Uni for her. I kind of got her point as she's very alternative in her style & very left leaning in her political views & she's listened to our friend who went to Oxford say how much she hated her time there for those same reasons

I don't think this is so uncommon though, as our friends DS had a similar offer, even had the private interview booked & then turned it down & refused point blank to go & went camping with his mates 🤦‍♀️ He did end up at Oxford a several years later though.

We've had a bit of a breakthrough last night, though I could have done without the heavy 3 am chats when I was up with a stonking migraine, but thankfully I managed.

She started off very confrontational yesterday, but thankfully did calm down when we pretty much did the clean slate thing.

She's told me she is going to the college, but if it's too much she's dropping out. I know she won't do that as it's not her personality. Even though she's hard on herself, she's like a dog with a bone with gaining useful qualifications, so I think once she starts the course & realises she isn't as out of her depth as she thinks she is, she will buckle down.

She has convinced herself she's out of her depth & she's seeing immense talent on the college group chat & she can't draw/paint like them. Of course she can't when she's barely picked up a pencil since primary school & it requires practice, but she won't practice as she expects to be able to just do itConfused

Turns out she knows exactly what she wants to do for the projects. This allowed me to point out that she's already nailed the design part of it & she might well find those who are best at drawing, don't always have the best ideas & it's an art & design course, not just art, so she isn't starting off as behind as she thinks she is, plus on my own course, most couldn't draw as well as you'd expect, but still did well because they had great design ideas

She's also started work on the project... in a fit of peak after our first run in 🤦‍♀️ as she'd already owned up to both DH & I that she hadn't started anything. Of course now she's saying she started days ago bollocks & our asking just annoyed her as it's non of our business now she is nearly 19 & she isn't telling "mummy & Daddy"😏 anything as she isn't 3 & we have to let her grow up... I got a big sarcastic lecture on that 😏 even though we really don't do much of what we are accused of & what we do is just common decency rules, like not loudly rolling in at 3 am midweek when people have to get up for work

I reminded her it's all about communication & that she might think that telling us absolutely nothing & leaving us worrying is grown up, but it's actually pretty childish & a 21 yr old would understand they need to communicate better to be seen as a full adult, than her nearly 19 yo self does & used examples of friends older DCs that she couldn't argue with. That did actually seem to get through, but we'll see

She's did give me a run down of her plan of action, but has said we won't see any of it & she wants to be left alone to do it, a bit sad when either DH or I could help her with techniques etc, but we have to respect that she doesn't want our help & hopefully she will use YT tutorials as I suggested So 🤞🤞

She's also owned up to how stressed & upset that she is that several of her friends are heading of to Uni soon & wants to make the most of the time she has left with them, so that's making her very anxious too

She also tried to take the opportunity to dig up another argument about removing built in furniture in her room to allow a double bed, which we don't want to do, especially not at this stage as there's no way it won't be damaged by removing it, & it's useful & she uses it everyday, & nothing is gained in useful space & the bed fits in fine without, she just has a bee in her bonnet about it & won't budge 🤦‍♀️ I just kept repeating "we've already gone over that several times & the answer is still no, I'm not having this conversation again, as it won't change the answer" that sent her off to bed in a strop, but she seems in a better mood today, so 🤞

Thanks again

OP posts:
SingingInTheShithouse · 06/08/2021 11:30

& @Bumpsadaisie, I totally agree, her head is off in a complete tailspin of anxiety over this & she won't listen to common sense at all

OP posts:
TammyTwoSwanson · 06/08/2021 11:47

It sounds like a bit of a complicated situation, but I can understand her stress. Teenagers compare themselves to others all the time, and it does nothing for their confidence.

With my son, I tell him to do what he enjoys. What would he do if he didn't have to for school. What does he do for fun anyway and what has he always done to some extent? What could he happily learn about because he's genuinely interested. He's really good at art and photography (and predicted 9s in his GCSEs in them - results next week!) But he doesn't enjoy it as much as computer science and engineering so he's dropping the art subjects for A levels. His teachers are horrified, but I don't want him doing something just because he's good at it. I did that back in the day and regretted it.

It's the interest and enthusiasm for a subject that will keep someone going when it gets tough at a higher level, not a natural aptitude for it. I'm sure there are plenty of roles in the fashion industry that your dd might be able to consider - or she could go onto related teaching or research or anything!

Hoghgyni · 06/08/2021 12:36

Sometimes Oxford tutors will have a chat with a potential applicant about the degree course. However, the Oxford application process is rigid. Applicants have to submit their UCAS form by 15 Oct. They have to sit additional aptitude tests (such as the TSA for pyschology based degrees) or submit work before interviews are offered. Interviews are held in December, again with a scoring system for complete transparency in the decision making process, so that the majority of applicants who do not receive a place can receive feedback on their relative performance. I would be very surprised if the admissions tutors would give any indication of an offer to a student they hadn't seen. Typically a third of applicants get an interview and 10% receive an offer. The system is unlikely to budge for an ordinary applicant from a UK state school. Even those receiving choral or organ scholarships each summer still have to complete the academic application process as well and find a college & course willing to accept them. Did your DD actually apply to Oxford if she is waiting for her A level results next week?

Hoghgyni · 06/08/2021 12:51

Apologies if my post appears sceptical, but there does seem to be a lot of hype & hearsay in what you have written. I don't doubt how talented your DD appears to be, but there is a lot of pressure for her to do things in an unconventional way. Perhaps she just needs to follow the standard route alongside the 1000s of other students applying to uni for art, fashion, textiles, psychology etc so she can see how she could see herself fitting in, instead of always being told how exceptional she is. Going to a few open days, looking around universities so she can see what real students are like it may help her, rather than listening to a few claiming that a back door route exists or that her alternative views or extreme left wing opinions would not be shared by other students. Does she even realise that all Oxford Colleges now have a majority of students with a state school background and you no longer need to do a secret handshake or share the same views as Jacob Rees Mogg to succeed.

Shadedog · 06/08/2021 12:52

What is she doing at college? If she hasn’t done art since primary school then it will feel very intimidating to do a course with people with level 3 art and design qualifications. I can totally see why she’d be bricking it.

I know you are saying all the pressure is coming from her but some of the things you are saying sound quite pressuring. The G&T programme ended in 2010, your dd will only have been 7/8. You say you never made a thing of it, yet you are bringing it up 11 years later as if it’s relevant. Saying that she is “one of those rare people who will do exceptionally well” and that she turned down Oxford (when it sounds like she didn’t actually apply) and she is the best student her teacher has had in over 20 years, no matter how true or well intentioned, is putting pressure on her.
I think you maybe need to grey rock the situation and give her time to decompress. She may feel differently once her results come out. She may want to go back to the beginning and look at courses for 2022, or she may decide to go for the art course or get into a psychology course through clearing, or take some time off and work, possibly alongside some part time study. It’s a shame travelling is difficult at the moment but I know a couple of teens planning on working holidays for next year (camp America, ski instructor type things) which is a good way of getting away and having some breathing space without having to nail yourself to a particular path.

SeasonFinale · 06/08/2021 13:49

@Hoghgyni

Sometimes Oxford tutors will have a chat with a potential applicant about the degree course. However, the Oxford application process is rigid. Applicants have to submit their UCAS form by 15 Oct. They have to sit additional aptitude tests (such as the TSA for pyschology based degrees) or submit work before interviews are offered. Interviews are held in December, again with a scoring system for complete transparency in the decision making process, so that the majority of applicants who do not receive a place can receive feedback on their relative performance. I would be very surprised if the admissions tutors would give any indication of an offer to a student they hadn't seen. Typically a third of applicants get an interview and 10% receive an offer. The system is unlikely to budge for an ordinary applicant from a UK state school. Even those receiving choral or organ scholarships each summer still have to complete the academic application process as well and find a college & course willing to accept them. Did your DD actually apply to Oxford if she is waiting for her A level results next week?
The system is also unlikely to budge for an independent school student either.

The process as Hoghgyni rightly says is followed to the letter.

SingingInTheShithouse · 06/08/2021 14:31

Apologies if I miss anything as I'm still dealing with a doozy of a migraine, but to clarify a few points.

I've probably worded myself badly in a few place due to said migraine

It was of course an opportunity to to apply for Oxford & it was considered that she wouldn't struggle with any of the entry criteria & they were interested in her

I only mention this by way of putting across how strong she is in tge subject.

Similar with mentioning of the G&T register for art, it's irrelevant bar showing that we know she does have a significant natural talent for art & design.

We dont & never have put pressure on her or ever made any big deal out of any of this stuff, as were were concerned about the possible affect on her. We'd seen the downside of this with a friends older & very bright DD & I did plenty of reading on the matter at the time.

I have more recently reminded her of her past achievements by way of reminding her that she does have a natural talent for art & that once she starts, she'll remember how etc & the more she does, the better she'll get. She has admitted that this made her feel pressured though, which lead to a long chat explaining my reasons for mentioning it, which she did understand in the end & saw tge sense in it.

Is she panicked about starting an art & design course when she's done little art for years. Absolutely. She was like a rabbit in the headlights & not helped by her 2 friends joining her on the course all feeling equally like frauds & winding each other up about how far behind they all feel 🥴.

Hoping the latest meltdown & resulting chat has made a breakthrough though. She seems much more positive & communicative today 🤞🤞

OP posts:
LIZS · 06/08/2021 14:37

Assume she is awaiting results next week? Maybe lay off until after those come through, then discuss options. Is it an Art Foundation course she has a place for?

SingingInTheShithouse · 06/08/2021 14:55

Assume she is awaiting results next week? Maybe lay off until after those come through, then discuss options. Is it an Art Foundation course she has a place for?

We are doing that, we hadn't realised she was as stressed as she is about the upcoming results as she's previously sounded reasonably ok over it. & yes, art foundation

OP posts:
Bryonyshcmyony · 06/08/2021 15:00

I'm just going to say that doing a year long college course isn't a "fun year out" OP

SingingInTheShithouse · 06/08/2021 15:50

I'm just going to say that doing a year long college course isn't a "fun year out" OP

No we know that, but it'll be a change of pace to the more academic stuff she's thrown herself into previously & potentially a useful extra qualification she could use alongside psychology too. She's expressed a strong interest in working with kids & psychology in recent years, so a art qualification might be useful there too.

Though she does have plenty of form for throwing herself 100% into a subject to an almost obsessive degree & excelling in it fir a while, & being sure that's her career choice, even from a young age & then freaking out & changing her mind at the 11 hour with things like exam/course choices etc. Then moving on to something else. We've had art, maths, English, especially creative writing, biology & science, photography & psychology so far. Meltdowns at GCSE open evenings, aiming for certain A levels & then changing her mind the day of, or after applications go in. She likes to keep us on our toes🥴.

OP posts:
SingingInTheShithouse · 06/08/2021 15:59

I should have clarified. Along with other health issues, she has been diagnosed with anxiety as a symptom. She used to take a handful of vitamin supplements that helped a lot, especially the anxiety, but she kicks back at that & has refused to take those now too. Plus of course she's a teen & it's stressful times for them.

But her anxiety does mean her mind runs away with her, often irrationally so, so it's to do with her perception of pressure etc, rather than any genuinely extra insurmountable pressure put on her. IYSWIM

OP posts:
TammyTwoSwanson · 06/08/2021 22:49

Sounds like she's definitely feeling pressure to decide her career from an early age! Tell her if she chooses something, and doesn't like it, she can change her mind and do something else! She's got her whole life ahead of her. She doesn't have to decide on what job she's going to do for the rest of it now! Let her do what she enjoys the most, without any thought to the end goal for a while. She'll work it out.

Bryonyshcmyony · 06/08/2021 22:51

But there is pressure? It's not just 'her perception"

She'll probably feel better once results are out

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