Dd talented in English lit - Oxbridge help!!

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Hi all, please bear with me as I'm completely new to this board. Dd is 16 so GCSE year she has a talent for English (9s in assessments/ recent mocks for lit & language). She's very passionate about it and finds it just flows out of her brain (as she describes it). After mocks the teachers for top sets used her exam work as an example of what the class should be looking to achieve. She's a focused hard working kid.

So for A-levels she's chosen English lit, history (predicted an 8 at GCSE) and politics. I've never really thought about Universities until recently but with Cambridge & Oxford obviously having the reputations they do have started to delve into entry requirements. I know she'd have to do an ELAT test first.

I guess my question is she's not a straight 8/9 student in her other GCSEs (6/7s for other subjects) would this hold her back?

How do you begin to think about Unis at this stage? As she's got this talent for English I want to encourage her to aim high (I NEVER EVER put any pressure on her), but where do you begin with University selection?

Any advice would be very welcomed

Hi there. I went to Oxbridge from a state school after scoring top 3 in the country on my Eng Lang A-Level (I dropped one mark, in coursework). I had three other A levels and an AEA, but this was about 20 years ago. I read English and loved it, and now work in publishing. And going to Oxbridge was so much fun and absolutely the making of me; I would encourage your daughter to apply.

I did have all As and A* at GCSE. I understand from admissions people of these threads that one of the universities favours A level results and the other does care about GCSEs, so you may want to look into that.

My advice would be for your daughter to read both widely and deeply. Does she have a favourite era or type of literature? Both Cambridge and Oxford are much more lit based than language. Oxford starts with Old English and moves forward; Cambridge starts with Medieval English (with OE as an option). Both include influences on English, like classical tragedy. Cambridge study is still based on practical criticism in many ways.

She should look at the syllabus at each and see if she has a preference, and think about her passions and interests, as well as work on her writing. Does she read Literary Review or the New Yorker? Both include extended essays and reviews that are in some ways what she would be aiming to be able to write (substance as well as style). Eg New Yorker.

And please don’t forget that there are other excellent places to study English and other ways to write and create, even if she picks another course to study. History and English have very transferable skills. And there may be less competitive courses to get into at Oxbridge!

@EnsignRoLaren Thank you so much for your detailed response! I would love to know if you found work within this area (it's concerns me that English may not be the best degree for job opportunities but I may be wildly wrong!). Also did you enjoy your time at Uni and your studies?

I am going to quiz her on her preferences. I hate to sound like a lazy mother but I don't really quiz her on it as I know nothing about it! I know she loves the writing / analysis side of things and this is where she shines.

The Institute of Fiscal Studies has a detailed report on earnings return for each degree. English isn’t great but Oxbridge would help.

Regarding GCSEs, many schools would be thinking students with 7/8/9 in the majority of subjects could be candidates. Many students there will have 8/9 in every subject. Oxford I believe does take GCSEs into account and they should have their selection procedure and criteria on the web site, as should Cambridge. The majority of students there do have a very high quality set of exams behind them.

Oh, also, I was that annoying kid whose work was shown as an example in class 🤦‍♀️. I only found my people at Oxbridge and life suddenly made so much more sense.

Yes, my first progressional roles were in editorial, but I am now (mid 30s) running a global division for a mid size not for profit publishing company. I have used all my speed-reading, information-processing, and analytical skills from my degree to help with work. I have also used languages and a lot of maths and data-analysis skills. I understand that English now includes more data-mining and data-analytics due to the way technology allows us to process large data sets (eg entire papers collections of say Coleridge), so things have changed a lot.

I LOVED college and I’m very close with my college friends (not from my course). I did a lot of extra curriculars and remember it all fondly. I’m in academic publishing so do get to go back quite often.

English is a great skill set to have, but humanities in general are struggling and I suspect will continue to do so. It’s a difficult area of academia to stay in (I wasn’t good enough, I don’t think). It isn’t generally well paid though I am now well-compensated and have been able to make it work with having a family, for which I count myself very fortunate.

English is still useful for various grad schemes and she could go on to, say, law or accountancy later if she had the interest and the right kind of mind, so it doesn’t cut off all options.

Good luck.

There will be more advice forthcoming if you re post on the higher education board. There are a huge number of Oxbridge parents on that.

I did mean to add that the Oxford course is Language and Literature. They state a Language A level is helpful. Could this be an option? Possibly instead of politics? It might also give you a steer that they would want a GCSE in a language if not taken at A level perhaps? So weigh it all up. Book an open day visit (you can go in y12) and see if the courses are suitable for DD. Some students wouldn’t like the content and English courses vary a lot!

There may be a little leeway allowed with GCSE given that this year has been so disrupted and it is unclear exactly how grades will be allotted. An excellent ELAT showing and a broad knowledge of literature far beyond the bounds of the A level syllabus will be essential to be successful at interview. But having worked as Head of Sixth Form I know that GCSEs can be the first stumbling block especially since AS level grades are no longer in existence for all students. More at Oxford than Cambridge but both will look at them and we have had excellent candidates not get interviewed and GCSEs have been the only weakness. As others have said, take a good look at the course content at a number of different universities and decide which ones really offer what your dd is interested in. If Oxbridge does then give it a try!

I read English at Cambridge and teach it now. I would suggest that she researches the course content and compares it to that of other universities to see what genuinely appeals to her - sometimes students choose Oxbridge because of the name rather than because they are excited by the course. When I studied there (a looooooooooooong time ago), the course was really quite a methodical journey from medieval literature up to the twentieth century with a lot of compulsory elements. Some of my students now study English at other universities with very varied and exciting options which make me quite envious!

So she needs to do her research carefully and relate the courses to what really excites and interests her about literature.

My other advice is to read. She needs to love reading, and not just the young adult fiction marketed at her age group but all sorts of things. Many of my GCSE students read very little beyond YA fiction (nothing at all wrong with that, but Oxbridge will expect a much greater breadth and depth from their applicants) and the texts they have to read for their exams. If she is already happy to read beyond that and is choosing for herself some of the "classics" (Lord of the Flies, Brave New World, 1984, Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre...), or is reading well written adult contemporary fiction (think writers like Zadie Smith, Mohsin Hamid, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie) she is moving along the right lines.

Any of my students who have had Oxbridge interviews have always been asked to talk about what they've chosen to read for themselves, not what their teacher has made them read for the course.

I think a very high score in ELAT would get a candidate an interview even if GCSEs are not so strong. I think a lot of potential students are not interviewed because of not doing so well in the pre tests. I think I also saw a breakdown of who was interviewed in answer to a freedom of info query. Not for English but it showed how they like the pre test results to be above their desired cut off point and the essay/work that has to be submitted must pass their desired level too.

I have found a FOI request for English at Oxford that isn’t totally up to date but gives a flavour of who gets in and who doesn’t.

My DD did GCSEs last year, wasn't predicted any 9s, but did actually get mostly 9s in the end. I know its different this year but if my experience is that secondary schools under predict GCSE grades, and there are lots of DCs can perform higher in exams, so the teachers should really take this into consideration.
Either way it sounds like it's worth her going for it, as she sounds talented.

Thank you all so much for the wonderful advice it's given us lots to think about 👍🏻

@boredboredboredboredbored I'll start by saying it is fantastic that your DD is doing so well in her English literature, I love it and did study it for degree back in the stone age.

Oxbridge is notoriously hard to get into, Oxford do look at GCSE grades, Cambridge lean toward year 12 progress. Ds is looking at Cambridge so the only information I have on Oxford is below.

We recently, before lockdown, attended an event put on by our son's sixth form college for "competitive entries" so medicine, dentistry, vetinary and anyone applying to Oxbridge as the UCAS date is October not January like every other university. Here are some facts and figures from that evening that were on a slide show.

In 2018 the number of applicants to Oxford was 21,515, they offered places to 3,840, number of students admitted was 3,309, so 15% of all applicants actually got in. I don't know how many places there are for each course. (I know for maths they usually make the admissions grades or exceed them but fall short on the maths test.)

Most Oxbridge applicants have at least 5 grade 7's and above for GCSE but the vast majority have a lot more higher grades. Grades 8 & 9 are considered the same for Oxford.

For Oxford specifically, A levels wise (according to UCAS collated data from 2017 and 2018 A level rounds) students achieved these grades

42.3% got A A A*
26.2% got A A A
19.4% got A* A A
6.5% got A A A
5.6% got "other"

Oxbridge is cut throat, but they have X number of places and X number of people are accepted there. So students do get in.

My advice would be for you and your DD to look at the Oxford website and look at what steps she needs to take, they are looking for what she is doing above and beyond her A levels. ie if she wanted to do teaching, has she volunteered in a primary school, run an after school club, been a mentor to other students in lower years etc etc? It is kind of all well and good to say you love something, but they want to see it.

There are summer schools in year 12, (Sutton Trust) so you need to look at that now, there are usually masterclasses too put on by colleges. Google will help with that.

I'll also put this here which is about contextual data, which is considered when a student applies to I believe any university. We come under a low POLAR postcode which works in Ds's favour. I know Cambridge is looking at first person in the family to go to uni applicants favourably too.

Oxford will no doubt have a YouTube channel and probably and English subject one, but here is a link for Eve Bennett who did get into Oxford to study English Literature. She is classed as a "StudyTuber" someone who promotes study along with Jack Edwards and UnJaded Jade. All 3 applied to Oxford.

I hope this helps. We found these things out in a rush at the start of year 12 after Ds1 was chosen for an outreach program by Cambridge uni. Before then he hadn't considered it because he didn't think he was good enough despite achieving incredible GCSEs.

I loved and was very good at English literature, but didn’t want to do a degree in it. Partly because I just wanted to enjoy reading, not analyse everything, and because stats weren’t great on jobs/earnings. It would be good to look a a range of degrees, universities and future job options.

MontysOarlock: I posted the most up to date figures for English at Oxford above. The main issue is passing the ELAT at the required level is vital and 5 GCSE grades at 7-9 is not likely to result in success if its 5 at grade 7. The A levels needed might be unattainable also.

@boredboredboredboredbored Current 2nd year Oxford student here. Whilst I don't study English, many of my friends do and hopefully I can provide a bit of extra information as I'm the undergraduate outreach and access officer for my college (basically, it's my job to clarify admissions and I've worked with LOTS of applicants and prospective students on this!).

Yes, it's a competitive course. And it's very hard to get in, but it is still possible. Your daughter needs to show that she has the academic potential and drive to achieve. Whilst Oxford does prefer as many 8/9s as possible, they can accept some lower grades insofar as they represent a bigger picture of her education. For example, if a student went to a slightly more deprived school, the admissions tutors will compare their grades against the average of that school. So, grades, whilst important, are not the be all and end all.

What we call 'super-curriculars' (or activities that go above and beyond the curriculum) however are very important. We encourage prospective applicants to prepare this as much in advance as possible - this includes reading, attending open days, absorbing as much knowledge about the subject as possible, be it through digital means or journalism open days. These activities help to demonstrate a candidate's passion and potential, as well as their train of thinking, and this all contributes to good material to put into a personal statement. The personal statement should be about 80% academic material, and 20% other material (extra-curriculars etc) for an Oxbridge application. For example, adapting mine as a French Lit student:

"I read Voltaire's 'Candide' and was fascinated by the presentation of optimism in face of the historical philosophical context of the Enlightenment. In order to find out more about this, I read other adventure novels, such as Stendhal's 'Le Rouge et Le Noir', and was fascinated by the impact that the differences in administration and the state in France had on the presentation of the Bildungsroman."

You can see here how I initially read something, had a 'hypothesis' or research interest and then went on to build that through further reading and research, and then drew conclusions based on this. Oxbridge really like to see that you've gone out of your way and that what you've read has contributed to your understanding of your chosen subject.

At this point, I think it's good for your daughter to:

• Read the A-Level syllabus and begin reading that
• Ask teachers for recommendations of critical reading for her (sounds boring but it makes a difference)
• Look into Oxbridge and other university open days (they often offer taster days for different subjects, which I HIGHLY recommend)
• Read as much as she can from 'Classics' or critically-acclaimed works (see Oxbridge's websites for recommendations)
• Check Oxbridge's websites for their current syllabus and what she can expect to study - believe me, she has to LOVE the subject to enjoy it!
• Work hard on her A-Levels to make sure she gets those grades!

Sorry for such a long post, but I hope this is somewhat helpful. If you'd like to be put in touch with some current Oxford English students, please let me know and I can arrange this. Alternatively, get in touch via 'Humans of Merton' on Facebook and I can direct you further from there!
Best of luck to you and your daughter!

PS: Regarding employment opportunities, Oxbridge has a very dedicated careers service with lots of support and employer opportunities. As far as I know, no one studying English has left my college without a job to go to after graduation!

May I also suggest you do some research/prep for the interviews required during applications to Oxbridge colleges should you go down this route? I was so naive about what this would entail and was completely wrongfooted by the experience and absolutely did not give a good account of myself.

Oxford English currently shows 77% in grad employment/study after graduation. There are better outcomes at other universities but Oxford is ranked 3rd for English in the Complete university guide. Durham is 1st. Overall it won’t matter too much of if DD attends one of the top 10 universities. It will be individual attributes, as opposed to your knowledge of literature, that lands you a job!!

Hi,

I'd just thought that I would offer a slightly different perspective in that my daughter applied to study English Literature at Oxford this year and obtained an interview but unfortunately wasn't offered a place - she's now made Durham her firm choice instead.

She achieved 9 grade 9s and 1 grade 8 at GCSE and was predicted 4 A*s at A-Level and participated in a number of relevant extra-curricular and super-curricular activities. Her score on the ELAT was decent, although not exceptional, so it was largely her interview which held her back.

I've spoken to her about what she wishes she had done differently. She said that when preparing for her interview, she should have contacted the college she had applied to and asked them what format the interview would take because this varies between colleges. She was prepared to answer questions on the books she'd written about on her personal statement but in the end she wasn't asked anything about it. Moreover, she knew she would have to answer questions on an unseen passage of text, but in all of her interviews, the format of the text was poetry rather than prose or drama. As her A-Level syllabus doesn't contain much poetry (for the poetry component, she studies a Medieval epic poem by Chaucer rather than conventional poetry), had she known there would be such an emphasis on poetry she would have prepared differently. I would advise your daughter, if she does get invited to an interview, to contact the college and ask any questions she might have. Although they may not be able to answer all of them to ensure the interview process is fair, they may be able to give more guidance than can be found on Oxford's website, which is offered by the faculty rather than the individual colleges.

However, in no way does my daughter regret applying for Oxford. She thoroughly enjoyed the application process; she found preparing for the ELAT and interview enhanced her appreciation of the subject. By writing her personal statement with Oxford in mind, her personal statement was of a really high quality, which contributed to her getting a reduced offer from Durham. Given that the odds of getting into Oxford are slim (approximately one in six) and the application process involves a great deal of extra effort, not least being ready to apply in October rather than January, I'd advise your daughter only to apply if she wouldn't regret making the application if she were to be rejected. The high likelihood of rejection makes having a second choice you are equally happy with all the more important. My daughter loved Durham after visiting so throughout the process maintained the mindset that if she got rejected from Oxford, at least she would be able to go to Durham!

It's also worth bearing in mind that Oxford have increased the quota of students from disadvantaged backgrounds that they accept from 10% to 25% this year and the quota is likely to remain at 25% for next year's admissions cycle. - www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-48336059 Equally, the number of people from 'elite' private schools getting in has remained constant at around 40% (and is unlikely to change due to the extra support private schools offer to their Oxbridge applicants). So if your daughter isn't privately educated, or disadvantaged, her chances of getting in are further reduced.

I understand that this post may read as pessimistic, but that isn't my intention! If your daughter wants to apply to Oxford, she can only benefit from the extra preparation that she will have to undergo. One of the most beneficial things my daughter did to prepare was attending UNIQ, which is the University of Oxford's summer school. She met loads of like-minded people, got to try out undergraduate level learning and it solidified for her that English was the right subject for her to study.

If at state school look at widening participation programmes for both unis.
Her teachers in sixty form should have info
Dds did one day sessions and masterclasses and two day residentials (only paid for travel but you could also claim travel costs)
also other programmes which run interview prep and mentoring schemes. Can depend on your location some colleges adopt a specific area

Dc1 applied science didn't get an interview but benefitted from mentoring interview prep etc
Dc2 decided not to apply to oxbridge but again enjoyed and benefited from the programmes

You've had some brilliant advice already. I would encourage you, if she is at state school, to apply for one of the state-school only summer schools and attend any taster days at both unis. Sutton Trust as mentioned before, are a good help, and look at UNIQ.

Best thing she can do is practise analysing unseen texts. If she loves that aspect of the GCSE, and she loves comparing texts, these are really good signs. Read widely across the genres - poetry, drama, novels, essays, short stories and novellas. Extend the range of her reading - so look at some contemporaries of any authors she is reading for A level. It's also a good idea to analyse the stuff she reads for pleasure. It's absolutely fine to analyse light generic literature and discover how it works. Also important to gain some grounding in key forms of criticism, both the pioneers in each critical field and current developments within or branches away from the fields (eg feminist, LGBTQ, structuralist, post-structuralist etc.)

While she's on lockdown she could write some essays for competitions too.

By the way, it's a versatile degree for employment later. If she wants to earn good money, she can go into marketing, business copywriting and editing, advertising and branding, either with an ad agency or in-house with the bigger brands. Then there's publishing, journalism, writing, blogging, media production and research, arts admin, academia, political and business speechwriting, tutoring etc. Some of these are lucrative, others are more vocational, but all are rewarding jobs.

I would encourage her not you to apply to the summer schools, obv.

DS did English at Cambridge. Came from a comp in a fairly deprived area. Certainly an area of exceptionally low aspiration. Not a sob story tho because we're comfortably off!
Advice hmmmm.... read, read, read, and don't be afraid in the personal statement to be completely honest about what you read. DS had a passion for Pratchett and made a really good case for it.
A levels - he did French, English, History and Geography, dropping French after scoring his A at AS. He then achieved 2 As and an A at A level, having achieved 11 A*s at GCSE in old money.
He also is v musical and had a grade 8 but I'm not sure how useful that was, except one of the I interview questions was 'is music a language?' He also got thrown some picture questions at interview. In his PS he'd talked about Blake and therefore got 'tested' by being shown some of Blake's illustrations. So I'd say it's important to be generally culturally aware and across things.
I ought to also say that he first applied to Oxford and got rejected. He'd had no interview prep and came from a school with no Oxbridge track record. We subsequently saw his reference and while it said the right things kind of, it didn't really sing. Cambridge bit his arm off post results and he had a great gap year picking up a new language.
I would really recommend applying post results in fact. And if you can keep an eye on teacher references if they're not used to writing them.