Daughter wanting to do a masters. What would your advice be?

[Sup3rCooper]

So my DD will be going into her final year at uni in September. She's studying media with a special interest in feminism/women's studies.

She would like to go into publishing eventually and was lucky enough to have several work experiences at two of the biggest publishing houses last year. She's doing well and in track for a first.

So that's all very good for her. She's now told me she wants to do a masters. I asked 'err in what?!' and she said Gender studies. She's had several meetings about it to find out more etc etc and her plan is to live at home and commute to where it would be - not far and especially not too bad when she'd only be going in a few times a week

My issue isn't her living at home - although she was outraged at my suggestion that 'student favours' end when she finishes uni and that I consider a masters to be a bit of an indulgence in the subject she wants to do it in. She says she intends to work alongside it

What do you think? I'll support her whatever and clearly this isn't up to me but I'm just unsure what a masters in Gender studies adds to anything really - does it make the job market more favourable to you? Or just a waste of time?

Academics don't earn that much, after the PhD of 3 years is a post-doc period, and most post-docs don't make it to be lecturers. I hit that salary about 10 years after PhD, although a few might have made it quicker. Getting a paid PhD, a paid post-doc and a permanent lecturer job is very difficult now, and doubly so in the humanities/softer social sciences, I'm not sure a career path beckons in that direction from the OP's daughter's current choices- if she wanted to go into research, as I said, an MRES would be a better Masters choice.

It takes years and year and year to get to be an academic. Those years are filled with short term contracts, diverse geographically, often on NMW. You talk about having a PhD as a way to print money - it is categorically not!

There are plenty of other jobs available with a PhD besides academia, which do offer better money.

I wouldn’t know about social sciences but the friends I have in various Science areas are generally on 60k and above, which isn’t shoddy, and are late 30s/early 40s and have taken several Mat Leaves.

But okay, I’m totally wrong.

titchy my daughter's experience echoes what you describe. Oxford, MA, PhD, and mid 30s before having the chance of her own home. It is a hard slog and very insecure. Getting a full time permanent post is like a lottery win. (Humanities) Nice salary now, but plenty of debt despite working several jobs at a time.

It's not all beer and skittles!

whqt I don’t think I you’ve mentioned is exactly WHY she wants to do it. Why does she think it will enrich her talents or make getting a job easier? Because it sounds suspiciously like putting off real life.

I don’t know about publishing but tbh I would (internally) roll my eyes at a Gender Studies MA on a degree.

Also I would want to carefully consider how woke the university and department was. Because in 2019 a) I suspect that if you are not a true believer that TWAW you’re going to find it an uncomfortable place and b) gender appears to be all about trans and reinforcing stereotypes.

My DD is doing a Masters in Fashion journalism. She is living at home as the grant is only supposed to cover living costs and equipment. She is using it to pay for her course but as she gets it in instalments we have had to pay for the course up front.

She commutes to London the two or three times a week she needs to and works a couple of days to give her some money. My mum gives her an allowance every month otherwise she wouldn't be able to do it as we can't help her as much as we would like. She has done an internship which meant she couldn't work for a month but did get 'paid' £10 a day expenses which helped slightly. She has another one coming up which is totally unpaid so we will have to find the money from somewhere.

I haven't made her pay for anything at home as in my mind she is still a student and needs all the money she can get. I also still pay for her car tax and phone which I will do until she gets a job.

Penguin made headlines in the publishing world a couple of years ago by removing a degree as a requirement to work there, so not sure a masters will particularly help her if she’s already got an internship sorted there. Sounds like she has enough contacts already to get into a junior role. I work in an industry similar to publishing and I don’t even have a degree - I work with people who are on the same pay band as me who have masters and higher. Depending on the industry, it doesn’t guarantee a higher wage. Anything media related, I’d say contacts are more valuable. I’m not against doing a masters per se, but I do think pursuing education for the sake of it is a privilege (and I believe it should be free to those academically capable)

DS has just finished his MA, which we funded. In retrospect he wishes he had done it part time and worked part time. He did History and has decided to work for a while before possibly doing a PhD, which he might do part time. One of his friends, who wants to go into publishing did a MA in creative writing, and is still considering a PhD..
There are loans available, but she needs to be aware that when repayments start, repayments need to be made on both loans, they are not added together.

@HollowTalk I didn't say it was irrelevant to the publishing job market. I said the opposite. But it's irrelevant to the job market as a whole. If the OP's daughter decided to do an accountancy traineeship, for example, it would cut no ice at all.

But she has said she wants to work as an editor in a publishing house, so it is job-specific.

Just to reply to your point about when these people join the workforce: if she’s done a 3 year degree (which I presume she is at 20), she’s practically the youngest a graduate can be.

Scottish degree, year in industry, year aboard and more are all 4 years.
Most teachers do PGCEs (post graduate qualification). Many other professions have postgraduate professional qualifications.

The government clearly recognises the need for masters with the postgraduate loans. If she’s eligible, do take that into account in your discussion.

And that's all lovely @DulcieRay* but when do all these young adults indulgently doing Masters and PHDs actually join the work force? Genuine question with no snide intended.

When they feel they've learnt enough? When they're 28? When they suddenly realise they're competing with grads 6 years younger than them?*

I really wouldn't call doing a PhD an indulgence. It's a doctorate. It's a job in itself. Doing a PhD isn't a doss, it involves being in the office usually a lot longer than 9-5 daily, then continuing work when you get home. It's months/years out doing research, travelling and presenting at conferences etc. A lot of those doing PhD's also lecture undergrads too.

She should do it. I work in the media. It's normal to have a masters as minimum qualification now, depressingly. I ended up having to get one later to keep up while still working full time - would rather have got it out the way immediately after my undergrad.
There isn't a single person in my company's recent grad intake that hasn't come from a masters

@HollowTalk "But she has said she wants to work as an editor in a publishing house, so it is job-specific."

Yes, and obviously no young woman has ever changed her mind about a possible career... My point was that it could possibly be useful for editorial work but not for most other jobs. Why is this a cause for argument? Forensic nit-picking isn't going to help the OP or her daughter.

Have a nice evening.

Does it really matter if it's an indulgence? If she's going to get a job, and the loan to cover it, I'm not sure what it has to do with you really. I don't mean that in a mean way at all but she's an adult.

Oh ffs

Some of us would just be proud of our kids for doing something they were interested in and good at.
I don't think a masters or phd is a bloody indulgence, but even if I did it would be none of my damned business what my adult children decided to study or not. I'll just be happy if they are nice people, tbh.

I think quite a lot of parents do worry about what jobs our DCs might get and how they structure the route to get them. If they are academic and wish to follow that route in a non science subject, then there is a question mark over what the future will be with a PhD in History. What employer values this over and above someone with an MBA for example? Obviously employers with a need for an expert in some area of History but this is a narrow field. Gender Studies has the same issue and this choice stereotypes the holder. General work based Masters surely make more appeal?

I consider a masters to be a bit of an indulgence in the subject she wants to do it in
That's not massively supportive. It's one extra year of studying which could make her stand out from the crowd as pretty much everyone who would be applying for publishing jobs has a BA these days. What's wrong with he being indulgent for one more year before she joins the daily grind anyway :)

Dn has just finished her MA. She was very committed and had to think hard about whether she could afford it.

She was telling me in some detail that she was extremely disappointed that the course (at a high-ranking RG university) was packed with people who were just there because they wanted to stay on at university for the life or didn't want to get a job. Furthermore the entrance requirement was a 2.1 - and no account was taken of where that 2.1 came from. Dn is a very "woke" young person, but she said she was sorry to admit that their intellectual capabilities were below others on the course who had been to "better" places.

She said that she wished an MA was still something special, not just an exercise on getting bums on seats and money in for the university and a way to put off getting a job for students.

My masters was an indulgence really, I did it because I was bored at work essentially, but I never exactly used it except as a bargaining chip to negotiate very slightly higher pay in a job I was being offered anyway (the subject of the masters had nothing to do with the job). It certainly didn't pay for itself. However my employer paid my fees directly instead of a payrise (better deal after tax) and I was living away from my parents home and supporting myself, so it was none of my parents business.

I don't regret it, it was one of many life experiences, and it has doubtless had some tangential, indirect impact on my life but meh...

Usually I think parents (and my own children are coming up to the age of making career influencing choices now) should offer advice if asked or if necessary but only if they know what they're talking about and it should only be advice, absolutely no decision making power belongs to the parents.

It's a funny situation where an adult who's been supported through one degree still wants to live in her parents house rent free and have help with cash flow though, as in I can see why the point comes when parents think they are watching and part funding things that are pointless. At what point does the parent do some research to see whether their adult child has been given the hard sell or been talked into something expensive and unhelpful, and say that they want their adult offspring to do more research and put forward a compelling argument if they want parental financial support to do take this course?

Will the OP's DD lose the advantage her current internships give her if she doesn't follow them up immediately by applying for jobs at penguin? A year working in retail part time and studying something not directly relevant to publishing instead of following up on her contacts and trying at least to get a publishing job could leave her as a well educated sales assistant, which is fine if she was pursuing education purely for personal enrichment and happy to work in retail, but she isn't...

Well she will eventually have to pay some/all of it back based on her future income so it is her choice. Her postgraduate loan is not means tested so you may not have to continue with student favours and if she got a part time job along side her study then she would be more than able to pay rent or even move out to a flat share.

DD is doing her LPC as part of her professional qualifications, it is luckily fully funded by her future employer. She has to complete some specific extra modules as stipulated by her employer and the uni told her that if she also completed an 8000 word dissertation then that would mean she would have obtained the credits to have a Masters in business and law. DD jumped at the chance as this meant she got the postgraduate maintenance loan of £10,609 as well as an £8,000 grant from her employers so she has essentially had over £18k tax free to live off this year, this has been a godsend as she is living in London.

Yes, that’s great, but this MA wasn’t funded by an employer. No one is even certain an employer would value it, over an above a masters with a specific qualification in mind. If employers fund it that’s entirely different! She doesn’t have to find a job: she’s got one and she’s not doing women’s studies! Big big difference.

Yes agree it it totally different.

I meant to add on to the end of my post how my DD only finds herself in a position to do her masters as it is funded and she would not have considered it if it was not absolutely guaranteed to support her future career.