NCTJ Level 3 in Journalism - anyone know about it?

[dayswithaY]

Just that really. My son is doing A levels, he's very capable and studious so I think he's on course to get AAB. He's looking into University but what he really wants is to be a journalist. We have read that the best route in Is to take the NCTJ Diploma in Journalism Level 3 at an accredited college, one year course and try to gain contacts/trainee position this way. He could do this when he finishes A levels. Or is it worth spending 3 years and a shed load of money on a degree and then get the diploma post grad. Most journalism jobs seen to require this diploma. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience of this - any advice would be welcome.

A top class degree and then do journalism.

Sorry: was interrupted earlier. If you think of journalists (newspaper, tv or magazine) there is a very high chance they will have a degree from a very good university. It’s pretty Oxbridge dominated at the upper end. These days I would suggest very few journalists don’t have a first degree in a serious subject. Otherwise how would they have any expertise in what they write about otherwise? Sports journalists are often sports people who have retired and very many other journalists have worked in their professional field first. Motoring journalists have often raced cars for example. Fashion journalists have contacts.

Training post A level seems to be limited these days and if DS has ambition, this route will almost certainly limit it.

Journalism degrees are not the way to go either. A top class degree, huge journalist involvement at university (and at school if possible) and then a qualification or MA are the way to go. Just look at the cvs of younger journalists DS admires and see what they did. I bet few don’t have very good degrees. It’s also ludicrously competitive. That isn’t to say don’t have a go but be realistic. Cub reporters have gone!

Do contact your local paper as our one has a post A level trainee journalist scheme. It’s two years and includes journalist qualifications.

Experience is much more important than a degree. The NCTJ exams are all he will need, alongside lots of enthusiasm and experience. Does he have a blog? That's good to show a portfolio of work, alongside work experience at papers, magazines and websites. He absolutely doesn't need to go to university.

I have a degree in journalism and work as an editor now but personally, unless he wants to be a trad newspaper journalist (and these roles are far, few between and poorly paid nowadays) he would probably benefit more from a degree, cultivating a specialism then doing a later add-on regarding media law etc.

What type of journalism does he want to do? Of my university class only three of us are "journalists" now and tbh I actually broke back in through having a commercial career and cultivating a personal specialism. If I could do it again? I wouldn't even bother with university and would just start pitching and freelancing from the off, whole trying to gain as much work experience as possible.

*while

Also, the BBC and ITV run trainee journalist schemes.

I did NCTJ many years ago, it was the way to go then and everyone on my course got a job in the industry at the end of it. It's competitive though so no guarantee of a place even with A level results ( if it's the same ie interview and test as well). There are so many careers you can go into from journalism so not all about being a TV reporter or national editor. I would say what's his long term goal, and then ask a few people who are doing what he wants to, how they got there. Good luck

The Oxbridge stuff upthread is not true and totally out of date. I have been in the industry for more than 20 years so know what I'm on about.

Degree far less important than how good and charming and clever (life terms rather than eg exams) you are.

If you are go-getting, enthusiastic, sharp, charming, hard-working and resourceful, with an interest in the world around you and a nose for a story, you will do well in journalism.

Print is dying so future journalists need to be tech-savvy and multi-talented.

(They also need to have a sizeable trust fund as the journalists who get rich doing it are few and far between!)

I did the NCTJ post grad diploma at 19, based on a-levels, entrance tests and having burrowed my way into doing stuff with the local paper from age 14.

It's a useful qualification as teaches the legal aspects of journalism, public affairs (a bit like politics) and back in the day, shorthand, although not sure if that's the case now.

All of my course mates went on to careers in journalism or in some cases PR. I had a couple to excellent opportunities which I totally fucked up but that's another story...

I think Ivegotthree has hit the nail on the head in terms of usefulness of a degree, particularly if he's interested in generalised news reporting rather than a specific area.

However, I feel if I'd either done a degree and/or taken a year out first, it would have given me more 'real world' experience, maturity, resilience and coping mechanisms which I would have benefited from massively.

Some aspects of journalism are really tough and you need to be able to compartmentalize if you're going to do hard news to a high level.

The journalism courses at places like City University and Cardiff are very very well regarded and last I saw, incorporate NCTJ elements / might give you the diploma as well as your degree.

I worked for an international news organisation that ran a graduate journalist training scheme, taking on about a dozen or so a year.
They required a very good degree from a handful of the best universities, Oxbridge, Bristol, Durham, Edinburgh etc. Plus a foreign language (ideally two). They also sponsored a couple of graduates a year to do the one-year diploma course at Cardiff.
It was still ridiculously competitive. And just about all of the trainees they took on had been heavily involved in things like student journalism and local radio.
Increasingly these days you really need a specialism -- plus a blog and Twitter following.
Your DS needs to think about building his CV now, writing and submitting pieces to any publication he is interested in (if they are niche so much the better). Bear in mind too that sadly a lot of journalist work is barely paid or even unpaid these days (especially online).

I am also a journalist and also disagree with the above poster about Oxbridge etc.

The majority of journalists don’t work on big London-based papers. They work either online or for regional newspapers, broadcasters and radio stations.

Working for a national paper is so incredibly competitive and the hours are absolutely ridiculous for incredibly low wages. 70 hour weeks for 40k if you’re a senior on a national. Most of the reporters I know working for nationals drink too much and have unhappy personal lives.

All that said, I love my job in the regionals. I did the degree, PGDip alongside NCTJ route and walked into my job immediately on qualification. It’s a shrinking industry but that’s the most straightforward route in. You definitely don’t need a degree but the NCTJ is vital.

If he wants to do this job then he needs to get very interested in consuming all sorts of papers and online news very quickly. He needs to get some work experience at the local paper or radio station and be very, very keen because that’s probably where one of his references will come from and maybe his first job - the wages are so poor that many young journalists have to live with parents for the first few years.

I wish him lots of luck. Despite the crappy pay, atrocious conditions and long hours, this is the very best job in the whole world which is why I’ve been doing it for 20 years.

And it does depend on what kind of journalism he likes and wants to do.

The NCTJ and any blogging/internships as well as a clear driving license will qualify him for trainee newspaper roles. Lots of these are regional.

The system is broken but I was lucky and sucked it up to do internships which pointed me in the direction of newswires, which I've wound up working in to this day

Wouldn't have known I fancied it without picking up the phone and arranging work experience. It's not glam and only subscribers read our work, but it's satisfying to get stories right, well paid (for journalism!) and there is more job security as the need for what we do is continuous.

There are many entry level jobs that require little more than NCTJ quals and some drive, usually at B2B publications

Ultimately it's up to DS to figure out what he wants to do and maximise the opportunities there are out there. I have a degree not in journalism but is still useful and well regarded

Yes Janicebattersby it is the absolute best job ever! But while it is unbelievably fun and fascinating, you won't get rich doing it (which is why I am instructing my DC to forget their ambitions of following me to Fleet Street!)

@Ivegotthree I didn't get into it for the money, like all of us. Haven't worked in Fleet St but would love to one day, I suppose that with newspapers dying that dream will go with them

It's a really good job OP. My family knew nothing about it and convinced me that I would have crap pay & only rich people can work in journalism.

There are many ways in which connections and privilege work for some people and yes, the very top end is Oxbridge dominated.

BUT this is the same with a lot of elitist industries. Law, for example, which people interested in the arts can explore, is even more stuffy and classist in a lot of ways

I would encourage a school-leaver to take the motivation of being young, probably able to live at home (during holidays at least if away at uni) and to just try everything out.

There are still many opportunities out there and the best talent will always be rewarded. There are so many specialisms and kinds that DS should dabble with as much work experience, blogging, pitching stories and getting involved with a uni paper. Podcasting, making videos for YouTube... anything to build the skills
and know what he loves and wants to focus on.

It can get competitive but a genuine passion will always make you stand out. The entry level pay is £18,000 at most places but expect to advance as your career grows.

I would absolutely recommend it. Words have always been my strength and I love the feeling of a job well done whenever I upload an edited story and see my byline :)

It's really, really not Oxbridge dominated now. Not at the top levels of national journalism. It just isn't.

Don't let educational snobbery be a red herring putting anyone off.

In terms of privilege, yes, knowing the proprietor might give you a leg up, but it's a pretty egalitarian workplace now.

I came from a rural background with no links to the industry at all (and I didn't go to Oxbridge!) but what helped me was my ability to get on with people, my ability to find stuff out and write it up, and sheer bloody hard work.

It's a fun job and anyone who wants to make it work for them can succeed if they try hard enough.

It really depends on what you call a top level job. So many are saying how badly paid it is. Maybe having better basic qualifications helps journalists move up the ladder and be able to work for organisations that actually pay well? Many journalists seem to work for next to nothing.

The BBC traineeship scheme has typically 3000 applicants for 12 places. It would be helpful if suggestions are put into context. It also lasts 10 months.

By top level jobs I was talking editors of national papers. Those jobs pay well, as do the level below, but much below that not so much.

I'm in a well-paid job, but the vast, vast majority of them aren't well paid, so I would caution anyone who thinks they might want to make money to think again unless they have the drive and ability to get to the top.

To help the debate with some statistics: Those of you who think journalism is open to all equally, think again. The Sutton Trust looks into the social mobility of the population. This is what they say about journalism:

51% of top print journalists went to private school. 54% of these journalists were educated at Oxford or Cambridge.

Children from advantaged and well connected backgrounds are more likely to be successful in journalism.

Children from wealthy backgrounds are subsidised while they work for little or no money. Others don’t have this advantage.

The Milburn report of 2012 concluded that journalism had shifted to a greater degree of social exclusivity than any other profession.

84% of journalists have a first degree.

Yes, there are poorly paid journalist and people who don’t have degrees but the odds are seriously stacked against you getting to the top. The Sutton Trust is to be respected in terms of social mobility research and this information definitely is not anecdotal.

OP, have you had chance to chat with your son? What does he think now?

I’ve named changed for this because it could be outing.

I’m a journalist at a national broadsheet. I have a BA degree and then did a masters in journalism. I didn’t go to Oxford or Cambridge, nor private school. But our newsroom is full of people with degrees from Oxford or Cambridge and people who went to private schools. There are two older people in the newsroom that don’t have degrees that I can think of. Everyone under 40 that I can think of has a degree, often from Cambridge or Oxford.

The Sutton Trust stats show just how elitist journalism is. Maybe on regionals it is less focused on Oxbridge. But from my experience the nationals have so many young people knocking down their doors, they often choose the brightest (or those that have done exceptional journalism elsewhere)

Journalism is also hugely competitive. It took me the best part of a decade to get on to a national (I got down to the final 50 for the BBC traineeship in my early 20s, but didn’t make the cut. Then I worked on a variety of newswires, magazines and trade publications until I got a job on a national at 29). Most of the other journalists who I worked with earlier in my career gave up and moved into PR or marketing etc.

What type of journalism does your son want to do? My suggestion is do a degree in a subject that interests him - eg economics, history, languages (which are always useful) at a good university - and then potentially do a masters at City or Cardiff or an NCTJ afterwards. He should also be writing down/doing work experience whenever he can.

(As an aside, I could never afford to work for free - which is a common route into journalism. Instead I used my annual leave from rubbish journalism jobs to do short stints of work experience in national newsrooms. I had a blog and freelanced for lots of different publications, while working full time etc)

NC for this but I am a journalist. I work at the BBC in a mid-senior position. I have crap A-levels, no degree and no NCTJ. I didn’t go to private school. My boss, who went to one of the oxbridges (deliberately being vague) and has a Masters, only earns 4K more than me (which really makes me quite smug). I got into the industry by sheer bloody-mindedness and pestering. Anyway. I am an anomaly. Most other journalists I know have degrees or at least the NCTJ and I would definitely advise doing the latter as it gives you real life experience in newsrooms (its compulsory to do this). Experience counts for far more on a CV than the degree so he needs to get as many bylines as possible. I’ve never once in my career been asked whether I have a degree - only ever for examples of previous work. Networking is key, and Twitter is where a lot of this happens, so he should set up a profile and get following and interacting with journalists and editors he wants to work with or write similar stuff to. Unless he wants to be a science, financial, political journalist (or something equally specialist) in which case I would say do a degree in the specialist subject and do the NCTJ after. But get as much work experience as possible and pester people - getting your name known is most of the battle. And no, it really doesn’t pay well - junior editorial assistants can expect to start on £18k or less (yes, that’s in London!) the BBC does pay better but it’s one of the only places left that does!