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Caring for our murdered daughter's children - Please help.

71 replies

Keelix · 11/10/2019 14:02

We are hoping for some advice with regard to caring for our murdered daughter's 3 children.

I won't go in to the detail of my daughter's murder, other than to say that it was her partner, and father of the 3 children in question, who murdered her. He is now serving a life sentence in prison.

For the last 6 months or so, we have been going through an application for a Special Guardianship Order (SGO) to allow us to take custody of our 3 grandchildren - they are currently in temporary foster care and have been since shortly after our daughter's murder.

Since the beginning of the SGO application, we have made it clear to the local authority (LA) that we need a little financial support to pay for one of the children's nursery childcare. We both work and can not afford for one of us to give up working, nor can we afford the nursery fees.

We have made it clear to the LA that the support that we're requesting only needs to be provided until such time as our grandchild starts full time school - in less than 2 years time.

We are quite prepared to absorb all the additional costs that come with raising children from toddler stage, into adulthood and beyond. But we simply do not have the £550 per month needed to top up the statutory nursery allowance until he turns 3 years and one term, and then the £350 per month required from that date until he starts school in September 2021.

We are prepared to find our way to paying all other costs, including the cost of childcare during school holidays for the school age children.

We have made this position clear to the LA since the very first meeting. It's not a case of us 'wanting' their money, it's a case of us not being able to afford to care for our grandchildren without it.

Given the circumstances that have led us to the position of having to care for them, one might have thought that the LA would help as much as they could. After all, it is not as if we just woke up one morning and decided that we wanted to care for them. We're here because their mother was murdered by their father!

Despite us making it clear that we need this help, we went to court this week for what we thought was the final SGO hearing, where we thought that the judge would agree to our SGO and the children would be with us within 2 weeks. In fact, the LA had a agreed a transition plan with us, where they come and stay with us for weekends, and we increase our day visits with them. This transition plan was only put in place and agreed by the various authorities, because it was acknowledge that the placement would be made this week; that it was essentially a foregone conclusion.

We also (naively) believed that having made our need for support very clear at every stage, that the LA must have been in agreement, because if they were not, how could they have progressed the process to the point that the transition from LA care to our care had already been agreed and was being actioned.

We now realise that the social workers that we were in regular contact with from the LA had not made our position regarding child care support clear to their superiors. We went to court this week having had no firm offer of financial help, but for the reasons explained above, we assumed that it would be.

What a mistake that was on our part! Minutes before the judge was due to hear the case, the LA authority told us that they could offer us £17.95 per week in support! We told them in no uncertain terms that it would be impossible for us to care for the children with that level of support, but they held firm. Ultimately, the judge then heard the case and was told that we were making our offer of care conditional on financial support (we were not, and never have been allowed into the courtroom to make our own case!).

The judge - thinking that we had changed our position at the last moment, was apparently very angry with us and has suspended the impending placement and transition plan.

We now feel utterly destroyed and mistreated by the LA. We accept that technically, our ability to provide care IS conditional on us receiving financial support, but not in the context that it was presented to the judge. Without us having the opportunity to present our views and concerns to the judge personally, we are entirely reliant upon the LA and other parties inside the courtroom to present our position. Unfortunately, not only have they not accurately represented our position, they've actually MISrepresented our position.

In our view, they've done that deliberately. We feel that they've known for months that they would only offer us £17.95 per week towards the £550 per month child care cost, but knew that we could not accept it. They thought that if they progressed the case to the point of it reaching the final hearing, that we would feel that we simply had to accept whatever they said.

They clearly thought that we were insincere when we said that we simply didn't have an additional £550 per month in hard cash to hand over to child care providers. Certainly not on top of all the other additional costs of raising young children that we would start to incur too.

The LA say that there are no mechanisms in place for them to offer any further help - for them, we've been means tested and in their opinion, we can and should just find that money! Despite their repeated claims that they don't have a magic money tree, that's precisely what they think we have!

So, that's the background; why am I here asking for your advice??

The court has now instructed us to seek legal advice as to what we should do next. We are doing just that, but I also want to reach out to the community for advice.

We are advised that we need to explore other potential care plans other than an SGO. Whilst an SGO would have given us the parental responsibility that we would like, it seems that it does not offer us the support that we need. It is suggest that other arrangements might.

Can the community offer us any advice as to which other type of care arrangement might work for us and might allow the various authorities to support us with the child care costs that we need? Could we foster them for the short term until our grandson starts school and then seek an SGO or adoption at that point? Would a family foster arrangement provide the short term financial support that we need? If not, are there other types of care order that might?

Please understand, that despite what the judge now apparently believes, we are not looking to care for our wonderful grandchildren in order to benefit from a payday! In fact, the mere suggestion of that makes me feel sick! All we need is support for 1 year and 10 months for childcare and we will find the money for everything else associated with caring for, and raising children to adulthood. Once our grandson starts full time school, the problem disappears and we will not seek a further penny from the LA.

We will of course seek this advice from our solicitor, but in my experience, it's always better to take potential options to a solicitor, than it is to just turn up and ask them what we should do!

Any advice or helpful views on this really distressing situation is very much appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

OP posts:
alwaysthinkingofsleep · 13/10/2019 10:25

Have you had any advice re claiming childcare hours from age 2? You may be eligible as the children are currently in care. Have you spoken with citizens advice or done the online calculator about what you're entitled to?

So sorry for your loss

alwaysthinkingofsleep · 13/10/2019 10:27

First off. If you don't currently have legal representation at this stage it is absolutely imperative that you secure & fund this in time for the next hearing.

Have you had any advice re claiming childcare hours from age 2? You may be eligible as the children are currently in care. Have you spoken with citizens advice or done the online calculator about what you're entitled to?

So sorry for your loss

goalpie2 · 13/10/2019 11:31

Are you on Twitter? This lady is amazing and runs a charity supporting victims of domestic violence. She is very knowledgable and well connected and I suggest contacting her should be your first move twitter.com/K_IngalaSmith

I am so incredibly sorry for your loss. And I'm sorry the authorities are failing you and your grandchildren.

Djimino · 13/10/2019 12:47

What a crazy situation.

I've no advice but hope you manage to get thing sorted soon.

I'm am sorry about the loss of your daughter

vickielisabeth · 13/10/2019 22:51

So sorry for your loss.

It will work out much cheaper for the LA to pay the nursery fees, than all the costs for them if you fostered the children, so subject to what your legal advice says, I think saying it's not financially viable unless you foster them/ they pay the nursery fees, may lead them to reconsider their position.

They have to provide an SGO support plan which you have to agree (ie they can't impose a SGO on you without your agreement) so if you can't agree it the support the LA would have no option but to consider you fostering them.

If you haven't already, ask to speak to the Children's Guardian from Cafcass- they hold a lot of power in court.

Good luck

Bellringer · 14/10/2019 09:23

Family rights group, legal advice

Gillian1980 · 14/10/2019 16:16

It sounds like correct process may not have been followed.

Were you provided with a solicitor? The LA should have arranged this and funded it up to £2k I believe.

They should have done a support assessment including financial support, which should have been discussed and negotiated via solicitors prior to court.

Unfortunately I’m aware of several instances of LA changing things last minute in court, but you should have had a solicitor representing you in court who should object to this.

Have you been provided with a copy of the LA sgo policy and process?

goalpie2 · 23/10/2019 11:10

Hello @Keelix, I'd love to know how you are if you are able to update us. I hope you've been able to get support.

WaxOnFeckOff · 23/10/2019 11:25

I think the issue here is not that the OP is necessarily on a low income and will be entitled to benefits, simply that understandably she already has commitments that mean she doesnt suddenly have £550 spare unallocated cash per month. Things such as child benefit will be required for actual child raising costs rather than being able to go fully towards nursery too.

It's madness as it will currently be costing the LA more than OP needs to have the DC in foster care.

It may be better to approach from the point of requiring fully funded childcare for the youngest rather than asking for the money to pay for it?

We all know where you intended the money to go, but this might just make it clear what you need?

I really hope that something gets sorted for you.

Keelix · 23/10/2019 11:38

Thanks again to everyone who has commented and offered advice.

We have taken further advice from our solicitor and it's fair to say that we were somewhat surprised by her advice! She advised that with the judge and the LA appearing to now be positioned against our stated position, we should simply accept the situation, or risk losing our grandchildren!

We had thought that given how poorly the LA had handled us and the case in general, that the solicitor might be prepared to fight our corner with a little more vigour, but it appears not.

Whilst we don't necessarily accept that her advice is particularly sound, we simply cannot run the risk that the court might refuse our application to care for our grandchildren. So, despite us feeling that we're being bullied and emotionally blackmailed, and that the court will essentially impose financial pressure upon us, it seems that their unfair methods will have worked, because we cannot accept the risks that our grandchildren don't come into our care, and are instead adopted out to another family where we will no further contact with them.

We thought that we could fight the system in the name of common decency and fairness, but it seems that we were naive and wrong.

OP posts:
GeorgiaGirl52 · 23/10/2019 11:43

I don't know the intricacies of your custody laws, but I do know Social Workers and they have their own agendas. I would advise you to take immediate physical custody of the two oldest while you are fighting the financial battle for the youngest. At a certain period, some SW is going to say "they have been with foster family for X amount of time and it will damage them to leave. They should be freed for adoption as a group."
If you already have the two oldest you will have a much better chance of getting the youngest since reunification of siblings is a goal.

woodpigeons · 23/10/2019 11:54

I’m a grandparent looking after my grandchild and am so very sorry for your situation.
Social services tend to push prospective Carers to take out an SGO because it basically lets them off the hook financially and in any other way. Any money they may agree to give can be stopped with no repercussions.
The SGO removes their PR (parental responsibility) for any child/children and they have no further responsibility.
There is an interim order CAO (Child Arrangement Order which used to be called a Residence Order). This states where the child/children are to live and in your case you would share PR with social services.
Like the NHS and other government services Social Services are severely underfunded so have to do everything they can to save money.
Before you do anything else I would strongly advise contacting
Grandparents Plus and Family Rights Group
www.grandparentsplus.org.uk/ and www.frg.org.uk/
They both have phone helplines, are very supportive and have a great deal of experience advising people in your situation.
Often it can be as simple as jumping through the hoops in the right order. Something I didn’t know about at the time.
Again my sincere sympathies and I am very happy for you to PM me if I can help in any way or you just want to chat.
I’m not an expert but have been doing this for 14 years now and am in contact with many other Kinship Carers.
No question will be too trivial. I only wish I had someone to talk to and had known all the legal implications when I took on my DGC’s care.

picklemebrains · 23/10/2019 12:02

Have you spoken to the children's CafCass guardians? That would be a good way of making sure that your position is reflected accurately.

Ask your social workers what they think is the next move.

Check out all the benefits you may be entitled to- it may be enough to make a difference.

You do have to be careful- once SS see you as uncooperative it's hard to get them on side.

woodpigeons · 23/10/2019 12:18

Keelix unfortunately threatening to have children adopted is a tactic Social Services use to get prospective Carers to agree to their terms.
It certainly worked with me, I had to give up work and ended up with zero support, financial or otherwise.
There is something that I think you can ask for in a court case which is that you are Party to Proceedings, I’ve no experience of it but have heard others talking about it.
Both those organisations I mentioned can help you with these matters and any more you may want to raise.
Please talk to them.

beargrass · 23/10/2019 18:49

Keelix I'm sorry to read your update. Perhaps you can take her advice, and use this time to collect evidence so that once you're over the legal process, you can (if you have the strength) raise these issues with the Cabinet Member/Opposition, or your MP. If you do it under the guise of "feedback", it could still mean they "look again" and you don't end up terribly off, financially. But I'd get legal advice before doing that. It may be best to leave it.

Another organisation who might be able to offer you support in a more general sense or if there will be any kind of review into your daughter's death, is AAFDA:
aafda.org.uk/help-for-families/

woodpigeons · 23/10/2019 22:01

@Keelix I am sorry if I came across too strongly.
I can’t possibly imagine how difficult your situation is and I really was not trying to pressure you into making any decision.
Family Rights Group and Grandparents Plus work tirelessly raising the issues Kinship Carers face with MPs and government.
Hopefully one day what we do will be recognised.
They also won’t try to influence your decision but will listen, talk to you and give you the benefit of their experienced and informed knowledge.
Hopefully that will help you to make the decision you feel is right for you and your grandchildren.

Kungfupanda67 · 23/10/2019 22:05

As a former ‘looked after’ child your grandson will be entitled to 15 free hours from when he is 2, then 30 hours when he’s 3. I appreciate it doesn’t make it completely better but should decrease your estimates.

reginafelangee · 23/10/2019 22:07

I'm sorry for your loss but I'm astonished that you think the council should be funding your childcare.

I can't believe you would leave your grandchildren in care over this. You need to find a way to manage like the rest of us.

WeShouldOpenABar · 23/10/2019 22:16

@reginafelangee the rest of us chose to have children and budgeted for the costs, you're simply lacking in any empathy if you can't see how this situation is different

GrumpySausage · 23/10/2019 22:17

I don't think you've understood the OP @reginafelangee. She has clearly stated she does not want this situation and the LA misrepresented her to the judge. They have always been willing to have the children, regardless of the costs. They simply asked for support whilst s matters were being finalised.

Purple1314 · 23/10/2019 22:35

Sorry, I haven't read through each response. I have been on the LA end of an almost identical situation in a work context. I recommended on behalf of the children that we should pay the nursery costs until child was of school age, went to the internal panel and this was accepted. I had to put across a strong case for it but it can be done. The costs of a child remaining in care and paying the nursery fees are vastly different and it's a massive saving to pay the nursery fees. You are also entitled to 15 hours free nursery from the age of 2 which cuts down the costs. You should have seen a copy of your SGO support plan and this should have made clear what support the LA would be offering prior to the hearing taking place. In the scenarios I've worked with the judge has heard from the extended family members directly (although this was unusual). The judge can't however force the local authority to pay a certain amount (or haven't been able to in the scenarios I have been in). In a similar situation where a family had been promised support but didn't get it due to the means testing post order they took it through the LA complaints procedures and at stage 3 they were ultimately awarded the money they had been promised at the beginning. The difference I guess is that you were never promised it. It may be that dependent on your situation the complaints process would be worth going down (all the way through the stages rather than stopped with a senior manager). It's ultimately up to you what road you go down, you can get legal advice from a different solicitor just to get another perspective - just look at children's panel solicitors. Your solicitor can ask to be made party to proceedings so your views can be formally portrayed and so you are in the court room. It may also be that you'd be eligible to more money if one of you stopped work as it's a means tested assessment and this might replace your salary. Also if you were fostering the children prior to an order you'd normally be entitled to a fostering allowance for that time and with some LA's for a period afterwards. Lots of scenarios to think through - I have to say in terms of keeping their situation stable I wouldn't think long term foster care even if it's with you would be the easiest option. You have to keep having the reviews, health assessments, visits and more than comes with them being a LAC child. Wishing you the best in working out what works for you and the children.

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