Which meat does buying free-range / organic make a difference for?

[cornflakegirl]

I try to buy only free-range meat and dairy products, because of the animal welfare issues. However, what I actually end up buying is free-range chicken, outdoor-reared pork and organic beef / lamb / dairy. I am fully convinced that buying free-range / outdoor-reared for the chicken and pork makes a difference to the animals, but have recently begun to wonder about the beef / lamb / dairy. Can anyone shed light on whether I'm spending my money wisely here, please?

I wouldn't bother with lamb - they sort of potter about in hilly places and are not intensively farmed.

Would definitely bother with dairy, especially milk. There is evidence to show that organic milk has more good stuff (technical term) than ordinary.

With beef would be more inclined to find a really good butcher who hangs it properly and knows it's provenance than worry too much if it's organic.

Chicken/pork I always buy free-range since the alternative is, on the whole, grim.

I thought organic milk retained more nutrients, but not totally sure.

I dont eat meat, but I know that DH prefers organic lamb to the normal stuff.

As an ex-farmer myself I have looked into nd thought about this a lot.

I am not at all convinced that Organic is worth the money. I have friends who have n organic farm and I just think organic food prices reflect gross inefficiency in the production process often on sub scale farms and with totally amateur operators and wastage. I also think there is alot of corruption in the relabelling of foods as organic when they are not.

However, the animal welfare isuses are very important in my view and it leads to better quality food if animals are well looked after. Free Range is worth the money in some cases as I describe below.

Chicken/Turkey - yes defintley free range. I cleaned intensive chicken and turkey sheds as a job for a while and had to wear full body biohazard suits to do it with external air supplies. They are vile places with 50000 birds in some cases and the chicken/turkey have to be fed antibiotics continuously to stop them dying from diseases. The death rates are horrendous.

Eggs - same as above.

Lamb/beef/dairy - not convinced. In practice, most lamb and beef and dairy is free range the animals eat grass in the summer and hay/silage in the winter. Some minimal use of antbiotics but only like you or I would use if we were ill.

Pork - has to be free range. Intensive pig rearing can be very cruel and many countries we import pork and bacon from have very low standards which is why UK farmers find it impossible to compete and are going out of business.

Veal - I would not buy. End of. It cannot be free range by definition.

I don't really buy it for the extra nutrients - there never really seems to be consensus on this, and it's not my primary motivation. I've just always assumed that organic animals will be treated better; then I started thinking a bit about how lambs and beef cattle probably live, and wondering if I'm being stupid. I really don't know about dairy cattle though.

As to finding a good butcher - there's not a huge amount of choice where I live. There's a pig butcher whose meat isn't outdoor-reared. And a wholesale butcher who does some retail - I got an outdoor-reared pork joint from them recently to see what it was like, and it tasted the same as from the supermarket. And I'm not sure I can be bothered with the extra hassle and small extra cost if it tastes the same... (There probably are other options, but the farmers' market, eg, is on a weekday 10-3, or some other equally unhelpful slot given that I work full-time.)

ABetaDad - cross-posted with you. Thanks. I don't know that much about organic farming in general, but your comments on the animals chime with what I'm thinking.

There isn't a lot of point picking outdoor reared lamb because sheep are put out on land thats no good for crops like hills.

I don't bother with organic because I don't see the point and AFAIK organic doesn't always mean that the animal has been raised to a good standard.

I try and buy meat from the local butcher. If that means I have less meat then so be it. All the meat I get pisses all over supermarket meat. Of course thats because he is a good butcher.

ABetaDad - have you heard of pink veal? This is different from the continental stuff in that the animals aren't kept in the dark in a crate and are allowed to live longer. They are fed on their mothers milk. The better quality of life is what give it this pink colour. Of course, if more people ate it then less dairy bull calves would be slaughtered or packed in lorries to France where white veal is very popular. It is also very tasty.

lottiebunny - yes I have heard of pink veal and you are right but I am never sure if it is really fair to call it 'veal' or more properly just call it 'very young beef'?. To my mind, the word 'veal' really desribes the terrible husbandry process of creating the white meat. I also agree wth you on the trade in exported calves for the veal trade.

We used to raise calves on our farm, fed on milk powder and then fatten them up for sale at 12 months old. Never ever in crates.

The 'veal' I meant was the horrible crated kept in the dark variety you refer to.

By the way, I would ever eat Foise Gras for similar animal welfare reasons. It is a horrific practice the way they keep the geese in cages and pack them with maize.

Don't get me wrong I am no bleeding heart environmental liberal vegetarian. If you want a picture of me I am basically Jeremy Clarkson but without a car and much better dress sense. He says a lot of good stuff on the environment too but no one listens.

I agree that buying organic isn't the ideal answer all the time, but, quite often, it's the best guarantee available that a) the animal will have been treated well and b) it's not been intensively treated with antibiotics.

If you have a brilliant farm shop or butcher locally, then that's great (although, tbh, none of the butchers round us give a stuff about welfare).

But what if you don't? Then organic is the only way to guarantee that some standards have been applied.

Or are there other ways and I am missing them.

vonsudenfed - I think I am rght in saying that organic does not necessarily mean high welfare standards. An animal can be fed organic feed and live on an organic farm yet stil be kept in poor conditions.

There was a programe recently about the very complicated and confusing food labelling standards and how people are confused as to what 'organic', 'freedom food', 'free range', 'little red tractor' logos actually mean.

abetadad could you please give me some more info re continental veal. I am ashamed to say I knew nothing about the things you mentioned and being italian I grew up with the stuff being told it's the best meat.

Damon - I am no expert on traditional continental veal production but my understanding is the calves are put in a wooden crate/stall shortly after birth which prevents them moving apart from standing up and laying down. They are kept in near darkness for their relativley short lives and fed only milk. This keeps the muscle underdeveloped and the butchered meat is very pale pink in colour and produces the pale cream colour when cooked. It is how we think veal naturally is but actually it is only an artefact of the totally artificial husbandry/production process of crated/stall veal.

In fact, the pink (rose) veal that vonsudenfed mentioned is actually just how the flesh of a young calf is when it is naturally reared by drinking milk and moving around in a natural environment. It is still produced from a young beef calf but the husbandry/production process is the major difference and produces a meat with a stronger pinker colour. The flavour is not appreciably different though. Only the way it looks as it it cooks a slightly darker brown but not as dark as beef.

Wikipedia as ever gives reasonable basic intro to the different methods of veal production. We used the Group Housing method and the calves drank milk made from powder and water mixed fresh, warmed and delivered by a computerised vending machine. The crated/stall veal is considered cruel by many including me.

Many calves born in the UK are exported to France to be put in crates/stalls and some of the meat is then exported back here because crated/stall veal production is not allowed in the UK. It is a horrible trade. It should be banned.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veal Veal Production]]

That link again:

Veal Production

Also to produce white veal, sometimes calves are bled for a few days before slaughter.

Standard continental veal is terribly cruel and we should encourage the consumption of UK pink veal so that our unwanted dairy calves are not sent to France to be crated and abused. After all, our farmers are getting income this way, their only alternative is to shoot the bull calves.

I believe 'organic' refers to standards of animla welfare, not just to the food they are given. For example, organic chickens/eggs are better than free range due to issues of space.

I don;t think that's right, that an animla has organic food but can be kept in poor conditions.

OH my!!! I am shocked! and I haven't even looked at the link yet. I never ever new that! It makes sense though and also explains why you cannot find veal in such abundance here.

Must investigate back home. I certainly will not eat the white/cruel variety ever again. not that I did much since moving here.

thanks.

What ABetADad says, word for word (dairy/beef farmer's daughter here).

Rindercella - are you still in the farming business or did you make a swift get away like me?

I heard a really interesting episode of the Food programme (or it may have been Farming Today given I am often awake when only people doing milking ought to be) and there are lots of farmers who are really keen to persuade British consumers to eat pink veal as like lottiebunny says, dairy bull calves are routinely slaughtered otherwise and just thrown away (I don't think a lot of people realise that)

Soil Association organic standard included better welfare conditions but if it doesn't have the Soil Association label on it then I'm afraid the animals have probably been raised in the cheapest way possible.

This pdf explains for chickens. Page 7 gives the information about relative standards. Note that non-Soil Association chickens may spend more time indoors than their free-range counterparts.

Lamb/beef tends to be cared for properly because it affects the way the meat tastes and the land used is normally unwanted anyway.

Always buy British pork and check that the organic standards used include animal welfare standards.

lottiebunny - interesting what you say about non-Soil Association chickens may send more time indoors than free-range counterparts.

That is I think what I was referring to earlier. It is not necessarily the case that Organic has the highest welfare standard although obviously it still is pretty good.

The problem comes because directives on organic standards say there has to be some consideration for animal welfare. However, the law doesn't specify what considerations so the groups (and there are several of them) who are allowed to certify products organic all have a different idea of what these considerations should be. Some groups like the Soil Association are more restrictive than others.