Annabel Karmel at 6 months?

[GeorginaA]

When ds1 was weaned (around 4 months), I used the Annabel Karmel book and although it was a bit fiddly and hard work, I really enjoyed using it and felt ds1 was getting a good mix in his diet.

I'm thinking about using it for ds2 but am hoping to wait until 6 months before weaning.

Does anyone know if:

a) the latest edition of Annabel Karmel's book starts off nearer 6 months as that's now the recommended advice?
b) if not... do I start straight in at the 6 months section (which seems a bit extreme for the poor mite)
c) start at the 4 months section but try and work fairly quickly through (although again, bit wary as it must be harder to spot allergies that way?)

At what point must they start having protein etc? So if I was to just start slowly at the 4 month section so as a result wasn't going to start getting meat until 8 months or so - would that be a bad thing?

Someone save me from myself! I'm getting myself into knots just thinking about it....

I think its more of a process - I didn't start ds till 5.5mths and started at 4mths stage with fruit etc and then worked from there. Think he first had meat at 8-9mths, fish at 10 and has just started bread/pasta etc. He seems to have caught up with her timetable pretty fast but then he has loads of teeth which must make it easier?

I'd go for (c) and pace it according to your child. DSs didn't have meat until they were 10 months old or so and it wasn't a problem.

GeorginaA I've just been through this dilemma as I had the book from ds1 and weaned him at 4 months. This time I waited with ds2 till 6 months and started at the 4 month section in the book. I took it quite slowly at first, but at about 7.5 months I moved to the 6 month section, and now at 10 months I'm just using the 6-9 and the 9-12 sections.

Oh georgina, well done you for keeping going till 6mo (I had to bring on the solids at 4.5mo with my DS2 as he had started waking every 2 hrs!); anyway, I would have thought that c) is the right answer, start off with simple tastes and single fruits and veg, but surely within a matter of a couple of weeks if all goes well you can bring in cow's milk and cheese in the mashed potato, give him a bit of soft bread, full-fat yogurt, maybe some mashed up fish in sauce etc. I would say no meat till 8 mo is not a problem, often tinies can't take the texture of chicken and mince till later anyway (which is IIRC what ANnabel says..)

Do you have a history of allergies? If so, or you are concerned, just go carefully with new foods and introduce one at a time. Shoudl be fine.

I think the advice to wait until 6mo has been a bit badly handled all round, as it does (as you imply) need to be followed up with HOW you need to modify the usual 6mo menus; it's not enough just to say, oh, not at 4mo, at 6mo instead and then expect everyone just to go straight on to fingers of toast and veg in cheese sauce.

Don't get tied up in knots though, by 6mo it should be a lot easier to go with the flow!

Georgina - which Annabel Karmel book do you have? I have The New Complete Baby and Toddler Meal Planner (ed. 1998). In it AK says "I would advise that, provided your child is satisfied and growing properly, you should wait until he is between four and six months old before starting to give him simple solid foods". The first section is entitled "Four to six months and weaning". So I would have thought it fine to start there.

Sympathies on weaning dilemma. I've just started weaning DS1 at not quite 5 months - he started waking in the night after having slept through, is still hungry after milk and watches us eat with a very wounded expression! As for the 6 months thing, this is a WHO reccommendation. They have to have one rule for the entire globe, and I read in a magazine article from one of their representatives that they put it at 6 months so that babies who don't have access to clean water are old enough to cope with the potential problems that brings. There's no way I could have held DS1 off for another 6 weeks - he's in the 96th centile for weight and 99th for height! The boy just needs his scran. Takes after his dad...

Poo2 - its not the weight and height that dictate when they should be weaned, as ds2 was 98th centile for both, and wasn't weaned till 6 months. He is making up for it now though, and does seem to eat more that ds1 ever did.

GeorginaA, you have just asked all the same questions that I am wondering about at the moment!! I waited till 6 months for solids, as dh has allergies, excema, asthma etc, and there is very little information available on how to progress through the various stages of weaning when starting 2 months later than all the usual books. I asked hv about how soon to introduce meat for iron etc, and she said she was speaking to the dietician about this matter. She advised me not to do the usual 2 months of veg/fruit, but to start introducing meat after a few weeks on various veg, potatoe etc. So ds is now just over 7 months and we have been weaning since 6 months. (Though he was 3.5 weeks prem, just to confuse matters). Have started to add 2 cubes of chicken casserole to his veg and sweet pot at lunchtime, but he doesn't seem keen on the taste of the chicken at the moment.
Last week I bought gina fords latest book "the contented childs food bible", which is more up to date and does go along with new guidelines for weaning at 6 months for breast and bottle feeding, but gives no detail on how to go about this with daily menus etc, like her weaning book does.
A quote from the book is"babies rely on on the introdction of iron-containing foods at 6 months as their bodies's stores of iron become depleted by that age, and breast milk does not have adequate levels of iron to sustain them. If breast fed babies are weaned at 6 months it is important to ensure that iron containing foods are introduced immediately to prevent iron deficiency anaemia developing. Bottle fed babies should be watched closely for signs that they are ready for weaning, which might occur sooner than the current DH guidelines. Although it is important to be aware of the recommendations, many parents choose to introduce solids before 6 mnths for oerfectly valid reasons-personal, social, and economic, so the advice can be treated with some flexibility. It is important to introduce iron-rich foods by six months, and if you choose not to wean until 6 months you will need to progress quite quickly through the food groups to include meat or vegetarian alternatives for their iron content" UNQUOTE
This is the only literature I have managed to find on weaning at 6 months. I know a lot of mums are for and against gina ford, but this book is written with a dietician from Great Ormond St as well, Paul Sacher.
I am a first time mum, and think the current weaning advice is very unclear and confusing. I was told by hv, doctor, pediatric nurse that I should wean my son later anyway as he was nearly 4 weeks prem. I then went into panic slightly a couple of weeks ago about his iron levels, as I read that prem babies's iron stores may deplete sooner than term babies, as they lay down their iron stores in the last 3 months of pregnancy. So does this mean he needs extra iron sooner??!! Sorry for the long thread, but I have tried for weeks to find info and guidlines on later weaning, with little success,; let me know you thoughts!!

Alibo, lentils are also a good source of iron, so a lentil casserole might be a good alternative to meat for the moment.

I waited till 6 months to wean dd (who is now 2), and felt very unsupported, though vindicated when the UK finally caught up with the WHO recommendation a few months afterwards!

You will do fine following the Karmel 4-6 months section, and you may find you're able to take things a little faster than if you were starting at 4 months. My dd was able to handle lumpy food quite soon for instance.

A good book for weaning if you're concerned about allergies is Suzanne Olivier's "What should I feed my baby". I have eczema, asthma, nut allergies etc, so was fairly careful with dd. I did find Olivier a bit hard core - so I steered what I felt was a sensible half way course between her and Karmel.

You don't need to particularly worry about getting your baby quickly onto particular foodstuffs in the early months. Milk still gives them most of their nutritional requirements. The main thing about weaning is to give them the idea that eating solid food is nice and to gradually introduce the variety that will lead to them being able to eat straight off your plate. I know it's easy to worry that your baby is suddenly going to start wasting away at 6 months if you don't fill them up with protein / iron / whatever!

BTW, GeorginaA, the AK book, does discuss new guidelines in the first chapter, about exclusive breast feeding for 6 months. It says most babies shouldn't need solids before then, but there is no "right age"to introduce them, as long as its not before 17 weeks. The first chapter is just classed as "first stage weaning" with fruit, veg recipes etc. The second chapter called "second stage weaning" is for babies 7-9 months (quote), and it goes onto say now include protein foods like eggs, cheese pulses chicken and fish. So that would indicate not to wait till 8 months. As far as iron content of babies's diet it simply says" if a baby doesn't have at least 18oz formula or breast milk per day, his daily iron intake is likely to be below the recommended level, and this can impair his mental and physical development" So it doesn't place as much emphasis on having meat asap as in the gford book, but more on them having enough milk for their iron levels!! Confused, so am I!

Alibo - have just read your message in more detail and I didn't want to sound so dismissive of concerns about iron levels. I had exactly the same worries about dd, and was constantly trying to shove lentils and dried apricots into her! But I was reassured (I think by the Olivier book, and another source that I now forget) that actually a baby's iron requirements at that age are very small, and although their stores are depleted they are very very unlikely to become malnourished at this stage.

The recommendation to wean at 6 months has been made in the full knowledge that this means that babies wouldn't be getting very much solid food for a couple of months or more after that.

I totally agree that there should be more advice for people who decide to wait until 6 months. I guess many people are going to follow the big selling weaning books and it's just going to take a while for them to catch up with the latest recommendations.

Good luck.

Albio - HV has just left having given me weaning talk. She said that at 6 months iron levels in babies START to deplete, they do NOT run out by that point. Not sure if you are exclusively breastfeeding or not. DS gets all breastmilk apart from 80z formula last thing, and HV said that with the added vitamins and iron in the formula I dont need to worry about iron levels, and as I have already started weaning I'll be fine. If you're a bit reluctant in intro meat, all pulses (beans, lentils etc) are good sources of iron, asare green leafy veg (broccoli, spinach etc). Or if you don't fancy weaning at all, how do you feel about introducing one formula feed as a stopgap?

One other general point. HV said that, whilst Annabel Karnel is excellent, her only criticism is that she can be a bit over-cautious in introducing foods so slowly. Unless, of course, you have a history of family allergies. All this advice can be very confusing, but I like that fact that there is more than one way of doing things - that way I don't feel like a failure if my first attempt fails.

Poo2, it's reassuring that your hv has said that. Trouble is they all say different things don't they? Mine was like, he must be on protein/meat etc before 8 months,he'll need the extra iron from 6 months onwards!! The gford book, makes it sound like you need to get them on a t-bone steak on their 6 month birthday!. My sisters hv had never heard of delaying weaning till 6 months !!
Pidge, its ok, you didn't sound dismissive about iron levels. I think I worried more about the iron thing when I read about prem babies depleting their iron stores sooner, as they haven't got as much to start with. Yet, you're supposed to wean prem babies later as their guts aren't as mature etc. ???!!! Can't seem to get a definative answer from the so called "health professionals"!!

Pidge, I've just realised you are the quinoa expert!! Have tried to get ds to have quinoa with apricot, for the iron, you understand!!, and he gags on the teeniest lumps!! I have a thread on this in the food section, anychance you could give some more advice??

Sorry Pidge, it's in the allergies section
Apologies folks for quick change of subject

Just to add that the latest edition of the NCT book First Foods and Weaning assumes a 6 month start.

Hi, I had the same question. Actually DD forced my hand on this. I started out with the single veg stuff but she refused to eat it so I just started giving her 'real' food and she seemed alot happier. One of the joys of waiting until 6 months is you can dispense with the baby rice running down their chin bit. On the other hand dd is VERY fussy which can be abit upsetting when I have slaved over some conoction only to have it refused.

LOL that I am a 'quinoa expert' alibo!! I knew I'd find fame somehow. Are you using the flakes, i.e. not the whole quinoa grains? When I cook the flakes for 5-6 minutes in milk, simmering the whole time and stirring frequently they go down into a real smooth mush, probably even smoother than the porridge I make with oats. I guess there are tiny lumps, so maybe your ds just needs a bit more time to get used to the consistency. You could try adding lots more milk to make it a thinner porridge, and stir it and bash it with a spoon!! I guess you could even blend it once it's cooked.

My dd also loved the Annabel Karmel lovely lentils recipe if you're interested in iron. Though it sounds like that may be a bit lumpy yet for your ds.

Sorry to post this here - haven't relocated the thread in allergies yet.

Thank you all! I feel a little more like I know what I'm doing now...

Please don't congratulate me yet, though. Ds is only 17 weeks now... it's just so many people keep asking me when I'm going to start weaning that I'd started a plan of action in my head I do very much want to hold off until 6 months though.

Sounds like the latest edition of Annabel Karmel is slightly differently organised - mine's separated 4-5 months, 5-6 months, 6-9 months. Might treat myself to a new copy. That NCT one sounds good too. Thank you!

Thank you also for all the iron information. That did concern me somewhat, so you've put my mind at rest on that score.

Ds1 hasn't any allergies, and I'm very much hoping ds2 won't. However, I have allergies and am asthmatic, and my husband gets frequent chest infections and has psoriasis, so I want to give my kids the best possible start I can. As a result, though, I do tend to err on the side of paranoia!

Thank you for such detailed responses.