Calling all expert Breadmakers

[MrsMcGregor]

Can I have some advice from those in the know please. I'm sick of buying two day old bread and have been contemplating buying a Panasonic Breadmaker however, my KitchenAid deserves a chance first! So I've tried two doughs this week - pizza and white bread. The pizza dough was good but I have some questions about my bread dough.

I used Hugh FW's Bread book and made his white loaf but halved the recipe as his says it makes two medium loaves. So mine was a 500g strong white flour, 5g yeast, 300ml liquid and 10g salt recipe which I put in a 2lb loaf tin. It really is quite a small loaf .... should I have used the full 1kg flour for a 2lb tin?

Used the KitchenAid to do the kneading and followed the instructions for 10 mins at speed 2 yet my dough had no stretch at all ... it wasn't sticky and didn't appear overly dry. So I did something wrong but am not sure what.

The bread itself looked lovely when it came out - nice golden colour, even size, hollow sound when tapped. It is lovely as is with butter, doesn't seem heavy, not full of holes but if my dough was better would be nicer. Toasted, the kids don't like it. It is pretty crunchy which I like but has a very different taste to our usual Kingsmill pan. Is that just the way with homemade bread, does it come down the the dough or is there a better recipe for toast?

All advice welcome and I'll have another go at it on Friday. I really want a loaf that makes good toast but also a nice sandwich loaf for school lunches.

Thanks!

Was there no sugar in the recipe?

Halving the recipe is where things I think things went wrong.

For what ever reason when you make bread not everything halves.

I'm sure you could google the actual rules but i find i need a bit more yeast and a bit more fluid. From memory Hugh FW tends not to use sugar but I'm an impatient cook so add a bit as it improves rise. Also make sure that the salt and yeast don't touch. The yeast wont activate if its mixed with the salt so sprinkle on different sides of the mixing bowl so they mix into the flour rather than combine together.

I for a good sized loaf I would use 500g flour, 7g yeast, 10g salt, 15g sugar, 15g butter or oil, 350ml tepid water.

I use a shower cap over the kitchen aid bowl for proving. It was a hairy bikers tip and works well.

Damn, lost a post! No there wasn't any sugar in it. So when I try again I'll try your recipe MisFor with sugar and fat. And yes! The salt and the yeast were chucked in one after the other so did come into contact. Can't wait to try again now! Love the shower cap tip .

Thank you!

I use olive oil (about a tablespoonful) and golden syrup (about the same) with 700gms flour, 450ml water and 2 tsp yeast (and 1 1/2 tsp salt placed the other side of the bowl). Also, make certain that your yeast is not too old. I made a loaf last week with yeast from a tin opened in October (long story, but no workable kitchen or oven for 4 months) and it didn't rise so well.

Thanks formerly ... do you bake it in a tin? If so, what size is the tin?

I make white rolls and brown loaves, I know when I come to split the dough in two for the loaves that each piece weighs about 980g. That means that my 2lb loaf weighs about 180g more than yours. It's a bit complicated because I have seeds and stuff in mine but I think you want closer to 600g of flour in a two pound tin. You can scale it up by keeping the percentages the same, 60% water (at least, you can use more when it's in a tin because the dough doesn't need to be stiff enough to hold its shape), 20% salt and I'd leave the yeast the same. I put oil in my loaves but not in my rolls because they go straight into the freezer and come out one at a time. They don't need any keeping properties because they get eaten straight away.

Toasting is tricky, my usual strategy is to toast twice. It won't ever be the same as Kingsmill but given time the family will forget plastic bread. I never thought I'd see the back of sliced white loaves but it's been nearly two years since I bought one (thanks to my Kenwood Chef)

I use that recipe routinely but haven't tried halving it. I usually bake two round loaves, but if I'm baking in tins I use 400g per 2lb tin, so your calculation sounds about right. Equally I know Paul Hollywood is very insistent about not letting the yeast and salt come into contact but it's not something I bother about especially. I almost never use sugar in dough but do like to rub in some butter (25g to 400g flour), which gives a softer crumb and helps the bread to keep a bit longer.
Home made bread does taste more 'yeasty' than mass-produced - I think because much of the aeration in commercial bread is from an industrial process rather than from yeast.
I'm more concerned about the lack of stretch to your dough. Stupid question - but did you use the dough hook on the KitchenAid? Also you may have over-kneaded: when I use the KitchenAid for dough it's usually ready in about 7 minutes - certainly less than 10 - on speed 1.

Thanks! Am trying again now using 500g flour/7g yeast/1tsp salt/1tsp sugar/1tblsp olive oil to 350Mls liquid. I wonder whether I let it prove for too long last time .... got caught doing other things and it sat by Aga for near 4 hrs. Fingers crossed for this one. Mother .. yeasty is just how last one tasted especially when toasted.

Oh, yes did use dough hook but gave 11 mins so maybe too long there too. Am watching the clock this morning!

I give my dough an hour in the bowl and then leave it in the tin for as long as it takes for it to rise up over the top. I still have an airing cupboard so I resort to that when I have an eye on the clock. I use a (clean, unused) pedal bin bag as it's big enough to take the mixing bowl to start with and then the tray of eight rolls or two loaf tins.

I got round the toast thing by making other things that he would eat for breakfast - brioche, bagels and some yeasted buns of extreme failure that were never to be repeated. I use the bagel recipe from the River Cottage bread book and they are far nicer than anything I can buy in the shops. I make tiny bagels at New Year, they look amazingly upmarket as party food with cream cheese and smoked salmon.

I got rid of the breadmaker in favour of the Kenwood Chef and I've never regretted it.

I used knead for 10 minutes by hand, then moved on to using an electric mixer with dough hook to knead bread (never longer than 5 minutes though). Then I read this and now I barely knead at all. This is a good recipe for a kind of free form loaf without a tin. I much prefer bread made without a tin, but if you do want to use one then just increase the quantities to give about 500g flour, 350ml water, 1.5tsp salt and 1.5tsp yeast for a 2lb loaf tin. The oil used for kneading is plenty IMO but you can add a tbsp to the ingredients if you prefer. I would thoroughly recommend one of his books, both when starting out and when you're more experienced (I've been baking bread for 25 years and I still refer to them often). He definitely made me realise that there's no one way to bake bread and that many of the 'rules' can be bent or manipulated.

As a general rule I use much less yeast than usually recommended as I think it gives a better taste - slow rises are better for flavour and are more forgiving if you're busy. Signs of an over-proved loaf are that it doesn't rise much in the oven or even collapses when you slash it, texture a bit dense, and can be yeasty tasting.

You can slow the dough down by putting in the fridge to rise for a few hours then bringing it back up to room temperature before moving on to the next step. So for example I might let it do its first rise then shape put it on a tray, cover with cling film and stick it in the fridge while I go out. Come home, take out of fridge and then when its room temperature again and looks well risen I stick it in the oven.

As other people have said the Paul Hollywood thing about not putting the salt and yeast in the same part of the bowl is bollocks. Possibly might cause problems if you were using fresh yeast but for dried it's absolutely fine.

I use breadmaker, loaf tin, free form but mostly use the same basic recipe for all. use a little less water for free form.

I make a starter dough from 1 cup (about 200ml) water, 1 cup flour (about 100g), half a teaspoon yeast.
leave af room temerature for at least 6 hours.

then mix the starter dough with another cup of water, 500g flour, teaspoon salt, tablespoon oil.

mix well, it is quite sticky.

bake at 200 for 45-50 min
I use the 'normal' loaf tin.

MrsMcG, I bake in a Silverwood 2lb loaf pan. It is larger than most 2lb pans because it was originally designed to bake a loaf that weighs 2lb, rather than using dough weighing 2lb. My ingredients come to around 1200gms with the baked loaf weighing 900gms (2lb is 908gms). Although the pan is only 3 inches deep, I regularly get loaves of 5 - 5.5 inches high.

Most recipes using 500gm flour and 300ml water would do much the same in most other manufacturers pans.

Thank you for such great tips! This one looks a whole heap better ... the dough was stretchier and the rise much better making it look like a loaf rather than a cake which had risen a bit too high! Gave it less time in the mixer and only an hour and a quarter proving. Haven't tried toasting it yet but am really happy with it. And more practice will only make it better ... right?

mrsmini ... am overawed by the fact you have been baking bread for 25 years .... your loaves must be gorgeous! Any nice recipes to share please?

One of the reasons I love baking bread is that every loaf comes out slightly differently depending on ambient temperature and humidity. With practice you will learn to respond to how your dough is behaving instead of sticking to timings given by a recipe. But it's very rare to have a complete disaster (other than with heavily enriched doughs, where you're adding a lot of ingredients - eggs, sugar, fruit - which interfere with the natural processes of the yeast - though that's another story altogether).
Glad you're happy with your second loaf! Let us know how it toasts.

I think I've found a new hobby . Third attempt is doing a slow prove in the fridge overnight so I can bake tomorrow. Yesterday's loaf makes good toast ... am happy .

I've only recently started baking my own bread and I've been using a basic white loaf recipe from a GBBO book. It's come out perfect the three times I've tried it. I use a mixer for kneading but use it on the lowest setting. It mentions in the book about salt and yeast not touching, as PP said. I use a large carrier bag for proving.

I have a breadmaker, which I've recently started using again after it sitting in the back of my cupboard for about a year. It only makes small loaves which we get through in a day! But it comes out perfect everytime and saves all the hard work of kneading, proving and waiting. I've been bugging DP for a Panasonic so I can make bigger loaves.

How do you all store your homemade bread btw? I did a search on here the other day and a lot of people said they wrapped in baking paper and put in a bread bin, so I've done that but still find the cut side of the loaf going stale.

I store my bread wrapped in a tea towel.
I leave the first slice to protect the rest (great for breadcrumbs for cooking later)

oh and in a wooden bread box.
homemade bread has so far not gone mouldy.

Thanks mousmous, the tip about leaving the slice makes sense! Definitely going to try this. My bread bin is ceramic, hopefully that doesn't make too much difference.

Right, lets start with an out and out boast. I make amazing bread, crisp on the outside, tasty, rises perfectly and is filled with beautiful big airy holes like you see in French bakeries. Every time. Honestly, it is amazing to me every single time but I can do it! There are three things to help with this.

Autolyse your dough, mix the flour and the water (make it wetter than the recipe as well, nice wet dough makes lovely airy bread) and the yeast until all the flour is wet (a 'nice shaggy mass' according to a great baker). Cover it and leave it for an hour. Then add the salt, gives everything time to come together and the flour to develop and puff up a bit before the salt changes things.

Don't knead your dough, not ever! Once the salt is mixed in eave the dough, covered, on the side in your kitchen (if it's freezing there in the oven with just the light on makes a nice amount of warm). Wait an hour, lift one half of the dough over the other, rotate bowl a quarter, life and fold, rotate, lift and fold, rotate, life and fold. Leave an other hour. Do that three times. Fourth time oven on, shape the dough and leave in your tin/proving basket whilst the temp comes up.

DON'T KNOCK THE AIR OUT. When you life and fold there should be bubbles in the dough, gently fold so you keep them, they are the best bits those gaps, when it comes to shape the dough do it gently with as little pressure as needed to put a bit of tension in the crust. Seriously, I will try and find a picture of some of my bread, I'm not a cook or a baker, I'm just a geek who found out the best techniques!

Also bread should just be flour/water/salt/yeast, try the bakers percentage and you can make any bread you like from any flour you like without a recipe. If you want soft white rolls add in some fat like butter rubbed in at the start or a glug of olive oil.

Sorry, it turns out I am very passionate about making bread and how easy it is! Also I realise this is time consuming but I love it if I have a day at home with laundry and tidying to do, it gives the day shape but you can also slow prove in the fridge over night, give it a wait and fold first and one in the morning and it's still ace.

Look, it's like magic, no kneading at all just fold and leave and covet the bubbles! My white bread is similar, wholemeal not as holey but still light and airy. All with no effort really and no fancy recipes.

Bakers percentage by the way;
Your flour is the 100%
Liquid (include the olive oil if using) anything from 65% up, best breads have a higher percentage, my bravest was 88% it was fun to shape!
Salt 2%
Yeast (for dry ready to add to flour yeast) 2%.

Weigh everything in grams for ease of use so;
500g flour (100%)
400g liquid (80%)
10g yeast (2%)

wait an hour

10g salt (2%) (small grained salt best for the dough).

I do this in RL you know, get all over excited about making bread and suddenly find everyone has magically drifted away.

lost ... that looks gorgeous but far too fiddly for me! My overnight in the fridge dough didn't rise well at all. Bummer!

In the interests of science I paid attention to what I was doing today and can report that 1.2kg of flour makes two 2lb loaves. They were one pound, fifteen and some decimal ounces when they cooled.

LostinWales artisan bread is wasted on my family, they want plain old sandwich bread with no holes to swallow the butter.

Ishouldbe ... that looks lovely. What is your brown bread recipe please? I should try that when I have perfected my white!