Follow on Formula?? and Hipp vs Aptimil

[cocococo]

Hi
I can't decide whether follow-on formula is just a marketing ploy by the baby-milk companies and whether DS should just eat more spinach instead! At 5 months, DS is down to one BF in the morning, 3 bottles of formula and 3 solids a day and seems to be thriving - well he's a bit of a chubster actually!

I did a bit of research into the formula market when deciding to reduce the number of BFs a day and wanted a milk closest to BM and of course ALL of them are 'closest to BM'! I narrowed it down to Hipp as it was organic and Aptimil and went for the organic option in the end when I read something about fish eyes and the type of fat in formula - lovely! Which of the formulas do you think is best? If I switch to a follow on milk I may change brand if someone thinks there is a better milk out there than Hipp.
Hope you can help.

We decided against follow-on milk as we too thought it a ploy by milk companies and we were also advised by the health visitor that is really was unneccessary, her words were "it's just more money for less of the milk with more bulk! you are better of bulking up his diet with healthy foods etc"

Our son (& many babies for my post-natal group) didn't bother with follow-on milk and they all did fine........

Of course it's a marketing ploy. There is no advantage in using follow-on compared to regular formula, but the manufacturers want you to switch because you will keep your baby on follow on (and keep putting money in their pockets) for longer than you would have kept your baby on regular formula....that's why the follow on packaging has more 'active' looking drawings on the packaging to make you think of toddlers. Regular formula is fluffy-wuffy babikins things. They are also allowed to advertise follow on directly to mothers, including on TV, which they cannot do with regular formula. This promotes their regular formula, because similar branding is used, and the manufacturer's name is the same.

I didn't go for follow-on either but chose against regular formula as I am not keen on cow's milk... so we gave our son goat's milk (Nanny to be precise). He did very well...
I hope you were kidding about spinach as I have read that spinach is not good for young babies... not before 1 and have read in more alternative books much later is even better... maybe your HV can advice on spinach.

Follow-on milks do have more iron in them than first baby milks though. All three of mine went onto follow-on milk at 7-8 mths after I finished bf. They switched onto it no probs and flourished on it, which I was pleased about as they were all faddy eaters at that age (still can be!) and it did concern me that they were'nt getting enough iron from their food.

I've heard, from quite alot of different people, that out of the baby milks, Aptimil is meant to be the best, as it's the closest to breastmilk. Mine didn't have this however, as they didn't seem to like the taste, strange that!

Pupuce, I was kidding about eating lots of Spinach but I thought it was OK occasionally. I've been lent a Rose Eliott baby book and she says 'no more than once or twice a week since the oxalic acid content affects the body's absorbtion of some minerals'.

The books a bit old so I'm wondering if its out of date now. Also read somewhere that Broccoli can retain the pesticides - I'm new to all this malarky and I thought by giving organic Spinach and Broccoli I was being a healthy mummy - seems not! Are there anyother things I should be careful of?

My HV is very ancient and not a great source of information - when I asked her about follow-on milk she didnt have a clue and said she'd given her babies tinned carnation milk from birth! Hence the post on here! All advice greatly welcome!

cocococo, if you are giving your baby veg grown according to recognised organic standards, then no need to worry about pesticides, the point of organic food is that it is produced without them. I've just been reading a fascinating book by Joanna Blythman called The Food our Children Eat, which among other things talks about how the baby-food industry markets its products to shake our confidence in 'real' food - such as organic veg - and make us feel we have to buy jars etc. It's very up to date and informative about healthy diets for small people, and much more realistic about what kind of meals you might actually get round to preparing than Annabel 'spend six hours cutting everything into wacky shapes' Karmel.

Another very good book is "What should I feed my baby" from Susannah Olivier. It is quite complete and very useful....

Listen to tiktok, its sooo true! Think about it, they just want you to buy the stuff forever and bottle feed til they're at school! I never used formula (save for emergencies and occasionally mixing with baby rice) and although I b/fed for a year, dd dropped her feeds dramatically after six months (maybe 3-4 a day). This really worried me but when I talked to HV she told me not to bother with follow on milk and just to keep her topped up with plenty of yoghurts and cheese.
Zoya, was very interested in the book you were reading, I'd have loved to have some info on baby foods when I was weaning dd. Its true that you get brainwashed into thinking that a jar will contain everything your baby will need, even though your rational mind knows it can't be true!
cocococo - carnation milk!!! Are you sure your HV is of the living world, surely retirement beckons...

Bottle feeding till they're at school unfortunately seems a real possibilty to me at the moment!

My nearly two-and-a-half year old is milk mad. I nearly posted this as a separate topic, but it fits in quite well here. Although he was happy b/f and went over to bottles, at 6 months or so, without much of a murmour, that's where he's stayed. He just loves milk - cows or formula - and he has graded his bottles in order of preference - will only have his least favourite ones in dire emergencies.

I keep, or rather hide, a tin of SMA follow on milk in the same cupboard as his bottles, bowls and beakers (for water or juice only) and woe betide me if he sees the SMA tin before a meal. If he sees those individual made-up cartons, he goes ballistic. He recognises the label instantly and won't eat anything till he's had a bottle. I cheat and make him a small and diluted version, so it's mostly water. Don't want him to fill up on milk when he should be eating solids.

You may ask why I still buy SMA. Well, I'm a softie and he really, really likes it - and when I think of all the drinks he could be having, it's a lot better than some.

He eats extremely well at his childminders and Ok with me. I do think he associates milk with 'mummy', though.

I have to make sure I avoid taking him to a baby food section when we go out. He can recognise baby milk a mile off and will start wailing for it. He's less obsessive about cows milk, but will still open our fridge, take out a bottle and wave it around when he's desperate.

He has at least 30 fl oz of milk over 24 hours, diluted in water to make it over 40 fl oz. Too much I think. I'd like to get it down, so I am trying to reduce the milk he's having by hiding the offending SMA can and avoiding situations that prompt his pleas - there's definitely a patten to it.

However, I sometimes wonder if he just needs lots of calcium. He was a very long baby and very big boned. He is fairly tall for his age and has huge knee caps and big hands and feet. I loath and detest cows milk. I cannot stand the taste, yet when I was pregnant with him, I had an overwhelming urge to drink it by the pint in the last two months of my pregnancy.

I am not too fussed about this problem, since he's eating ok, but would welcome any comments.

BTW Regarding evaporated milk - I know of two healthy and highly intelligent twenty-something sisters who were fed this as babies, too. Can't imagine doing it myself.

Chanel, there may be more iron in follow on than in regular formula, but the baby cannot use it. That's why many babies get so painfully constipated on follow on...a side-effect of the digestion trying to process the extra iron.

Tiktok - I can only speak from my experience, and mine never got constipated on it. I know it can have this effect though, but that is only a possible side effect of taking any oral form of iron, such as iron tablets. I was prescribed iron tablets for anaemia when I was pg, they didn't make me constipated, but they did send my Hb up, so I must have been using the iron in them. I realise you may have had bad experiences with follow-on milks, but mine have all been good.

Don't you all think we are 'fed' a load of codswallop about what to feed our babies - I am a neurotic first time mum but have now realised that my 10 month old baby is perfectly happy & healthy with whatever we eat/left overs! (like a pet!) & now has the same semi-skimmed milk we get from the milkman! I was able to b/f until 9 months which was great but he is a happy , podgy chap who will eat more or less anything - don't fall for these marketing ploys - especially juices - what is wrong with water! Good luck

I can confirm the carnation mild story. I am one of four.The first three were breastfed but my poor wee sister was bottle fed diluted carnation milk! She is about 38 now and apparently it was the thing to do in those days. And get this....my mother was a midwife!
It does not seem to have dom=ne her lasting damage.
Another friend, aged about 30 was bottle fed milky coffee from birth, which was all the rage then apparently. She too is a healthy intelligent, gorgeous woman, with a (breastfed!) baby of her own now.

Hi Lindy, totally agree with you about babies eating the same food as us and water being equally good (if not better) than juices, but I was told by my HV that cows milk shouldn't be introduced to babies under 12 months (something about iron deficiency) and from 12 months they should have the full fat version of cows milk (until about 2/3) as the lower fat milks don't give them enough energy. Just a thought.

Hmmm, I'm getting a bit confused here now. I thought full-fat and pref. organic cows milk was ok for cooking and on cereal from 6 months but that formula was better as a drink due to depleted iron stores? Or is that wrong? Hence my q about follow-on milks.

DS tends to have a bit of trouble in the bottom department, sometimes does a few pebbles sometimes full explosions and the last thing I want to do is constipate him further so I think I'll leave the follow-on for the time being.

Those books sound really interesting shall have to check them out at the library as if I buy another baby book DH will kill me.

Jasper - Milky coffee seems even worse than carnation milk, does she have any caffiene addictions?

Hi cocococo, I should have said in my earlier posting that I meant cow's milk wasn't OK before one year as the main milk DRINK. I only ever used SMA White when I switched from b/f, no idea about organic formula. Yes you are right about it being OK to introduce cow's milk into cooking, mixing cereals, etc. from 6 months.
I did read somewhere, though, that there is more iron in cow's milk and less in b/f milk, but a baby's intestines is less able to absorb the iron in cow's milk (under one year, I presume) so b/f and iron-rich formula is better, but regular formula, not follow-on.

I see! Thanks Jodee - I'm a neurotic first timer.. can you tell? It's all so new and confusing this formula business, it was much easier bunging my boob in than having to sterlise, cool the kettle, measure out..... I cannot believe people actually think breast feeding is a hassle and formula is easier!

Tigermoth - it must be a real pain still having to measure out forumla after 2 and a half years but as you rightly say better SMA than coca cola heh!

cocococo , no sign of caffeine addiction in my coffee raised friend!She is exceptionally clever,( a doctor, won prizes all through university) sane, and beautiful in fact!

My sister was fed carnation milk too. She is now 31, a leading paramedic so cant do anything to the brain cells.

My dad smoked a pipe almost all his life and lived until he was 91. Don't think I'll be suggesting my children take up the weed, though!

The point is, these stories are just that - anecdotal evidence. Properly researched evidence tells a different story and you can only know in hindsight that someone has not been affected. It's not possible to know in advance whether the subject will be the one who achieves high aims or is the one whose education is crippled by asthma and eczema and ends up severely disadvantaged. I'm sure TikTok could supply us with plenty of relevant statistics!

Don't know about relevant statistics off the top of my head....but when it comes to brain and intellectual development, feeding X as opposed to Y doesn't make the difference between being the school dunce and being a PhD. Figures differ, but one overview I read said the difference between formula fed babies and breastfed babies is of the order of 7-10 IQ points. Now, for most people that is neither here nor there...but for kids who are below average, it could make the difference between being able to live independently, and always needing round-the-clock care. Carnation milk is not all that terrible compared to today's formulas, in fact - btw, it was used diluted, not neat. But we have been convinced by the formula industry that formula is essential for babies, and so giving your baby anything but formula (apart from breastmilk, of course!) is thought to be shocking. The main difference between formulas and Carnation is that the protein in formula has been 'modified', sort of 'pre-digested', so it is less of a 'burden' to the infant digestive system. For some susceptible babies, 'non-modified' milks like Carnation would be pretty hard work to digest, and they would get tummy pains and constipation....if you ask mothers who had their babies 50 or 60 years ago, you will find this was a known 'hazard' of artificial feeding. When the 'modified' milk came in about 30-40 years ago, mothers then complained 'the milk goes straight through them' as the babies tended to be hungrier more often, and have sloppier nappies...they would deal with this by putting an extra scoop of formula in the bottle to thicken it, or by adding baby rice to the bottle, which is actually quite risky as it alters the liquid proportion.

SueDonim is dead right though - it is no argument at all to say 'I did X and in my sample of 1/2/3/4, everything was fine. " For a start, it might not be fine. What about asthma, exzema, food intolerance, the extra infections that might not have happened? Secondly, risks are assessed with scores if not hundreds if not thousands of babies. I could run across the road without looking, and chances are a bus wouldn't knock me over....but that doesn't prove it's safe to run across the road : )

Whoa there, statisticians! I was not for a second suggesting that my smart carnation milk raised sister and my clever coffee raised friend were proof thatit was fine to feed that kind of stuff to your baby! I was merely pointing out that ideas about feeding babies have gone through some strange phases in the past and thankfully the babies I happen to know who were raised this way have thankfully lived to tell the tale. I mentioned that both my sister and my friend are very intelligent more as a matter of interest/ amusement and not for a second to suggest that it was fine to have fed them like that. I would be most surprised if anyone took it any other way.

Just to cause a bit more of confusion...I have recently taken my baby to be seen by a peadiatrician in Italy (I'm Italian and everytime I go I have her checked, just be on the safe side), who told me that follow-on milks are a commercial ploy and that cow's milk (semi-skimmed according to him) is perfectly good for a baby on a mixed diet.
I still chose formula when I stopped b/f at 7 months as I felt it was a safer bet, maybe it's not necessary, but it gives me peace of mind.

As far as different brands are concerned, a friend of mine, who is a pharmacist, thinks they are all the same and my baby has tried a few different ones and she does not even seem to notice a difference in taste.

As someone said, recommendations on baby feeding change from time to time (and from country to country!) and the truth I believe is that no one knows for sure what's best, apart from mum's milk of course.

Yes, jasper, I knew what you meant!! I also agree that formula is a bit of a con generally....for some babies the type of formula chosen will make a real difference, but not for most. I don't know how this can be quantified, but the gap between breastmilk and anything else is pretty wide, and a lot wider than the gap between brand X formula and brand Y, and bigger than the gap between cows milk (unmodified) and formula, too. This is not to say 'it doesn't matter what non-breastfed babies get to drink' but just to point out that a lot of what we take for granted as being necessary is marketing-led.

There's a lot of money in formula, so this should make us suspicious!!

tiktok your info on IQ point differences in breastfed v non bf babies made ineresting reading.
Thank goodness my dear old mum breastfed me...ten IQ poits less could make all the difference to my currently addled old pregnant brain!
Tonight I dragged my dh and kids off for a spot of spontaneous late night Ikea shopping and came home to discover I had left candles burning! Thankfully the house was still standing.