No-strings food - can it be done???

[WellieMum]

Hi all
I'm usually a lurker - not by choice! I'm just not very good at 1 handed typing and only get here when I'm feeding dd.

During my lurkings, I've noticed there're lots of people using food as treats or a bargaining tool, eg "eat your veg or you can't have pudding", alternatively "Do your homework and you can have chocolate buttons", "Since you've been good we'll all go to McDonalds"... that sort of thing. In other words, playing off "good" food vs "bad" food with the treat being the "bad" food.

This has made me think. Dp and I love our food (translation: we are greedy pigs) and we do more or less eat whatever we want to. This works for us because a) we exercise and b) the food we like is reasonably healthy.

We have a 13 month old dd who has so far been a dream to feed - eats when she's hungry, doesn't when she isn't, and likes a wide range of stuff. No doubt this is all going to change soon!

So (welliemum finally gets to the point) my question is: can you feed a toddler/small child without ever making food a behaviour issue? ie food is just food, minimal labelling of food as "good" and "bad", and no glamorising of "bad" food by using it as a bribe or reward.

eg, dp and I eat chocolate fairly often because we like it; we don't agonise about it and we know it's not a substitute for actual food. It's just not a big deal.

Can this be done with a toddler/small child? Will they always try to push the boundaries, ie are you inevitably forced to use bargaining and make food rules? We do want dd to grow up enjoying her food in a straightforward kind of way as we do.

(PS it hardly goes without saying that this isn't a criticism of anyone who does use bribery - partly because we haven't been there yet, partly because I genuinely don't give a monkey's about how other people choose to do things).

TBH I think it's eaier to do with a toddler/small child as their negociating skills are still very rudimentary. The best suggestion I have got is just to assume that if they don't wnat to eat the first part of the meal (that generally it's the most nutritious), then they are not hungry enough to have the pudding and nothing will happen if they miss it. However, this is easier said than done, I often find my self answering "when you have finished your chicken/meat/vegetables/etc." to DS' demands for the pudding.

I do use "two more mouthfuls and you can get down", just like I'll say "walk for 2 more lamposts and I'll carry you". He's really good with numbers and negotiating, so maybe this is why.

I don't have treat and non treat food, for the simple reason that a banana could kill ds and chocolate won't (well it may eventually). I don't give food as treats to any child, though I acknowledge it's nice to have a treat from time to time and we do.

One woman said "oh we had a nightmare with ds today, he wouldn't stay in his pram and he wouldn't walk and he kept whinging as we were shopping, oh it was so tiring." Then 3 sentences later on "oh, he was pretty good at the shops so we let him have a icecream". I wondered why I was listening to her when she wasn't actually listening to herself.
That's the sort of attitude to food (and indeed discipline) that I don't want to find myself doing.

I only have a toddler (2) so don't know whether I'll manage to keep going on this, but I've found only having healthy stuff has meant that I have been chilled out about food myself and that helps to keep DD that way!

I let her eat if she's hungry, and not if she's not. When I offer her dinner, there is always something I know she likes on her plate. If she doesn't want to eat it, she gets down. I don't offer her anything else... she comes back when she's hungry (usually 5 minutes later) but I don't force her to sit and eat everything up or anything for that matter!

If she really does not want her dinner, but then wants pudding, I'm usually okay with that too. Pudding is always fresh fruit, so if she eats that instead of her dinner one day, its no big deal, I just let it pass.

All her snacks are healthy - she has choices between cheese sticks (Lil moos organic things) or fruit or something. Her "sweets" are in fact dried fruit - raisins, mango, dates, figs, apricots etc. We don't use them as treats, but if she sees another child having 'sweets' then she has hers... she has even been known to refuse crisps, in favour of dried mango!

We don't eat chocolate in front of her (just when she's gone to bed!), and plan not to give it to her until she realises what it is, but by then she will hopefully be old enough to understand a bit more about foods and a healthy diet!

Because all her food is 'healthy' (ish! ), then I'm chilled out about what she eats and am able to give her a fair bit of choice about what she wants to eat and when. If she's hungry and asks for a snack, she'll have the option between two healthy choices so it doesn't matter if she rejects dinner or anything, but then I think I'm lucky as she is a greedy guts. Her regular diet is:

2 x Breakfast (1x bowl of weetabix at home and bowl of shreddies at nursery)

Mid morning snack of fresh fruit

Lunch. (Sometimes has two portions!!)
Pudding - fruit or yoghurt

Afternoon snack, not fruit but savoury

Tea x 2 (Hers and then she eats with us a bit later)

Supper - either porridge or weetabix

And despite eating all that - she's only on the 9th percentile for her weight!!

However, will it last.....????

Yes you can feed a child without it becoming a behaviour issue!

I experienced too many children with 'food issues' at nursery (where i used to work). And so decided that nobody - (her dad and grandparents all got strict instructions ) were to bribe her. We don't always have puddings in this house so dd doesn't assume there is one. We all sit at the table for a meal, we all eat as much as we want and then if there is pudding we all get offered some, regardless of who ate what for their main course.
Some days dd will eat everything, some days she may literally have two mouthfuls - i don't fuss. I ask her if she'd like my help - and sometimes she'll let me feed her a bit more. And then the plates get cleared away.
Our meals are all healthy/fresh stuff. Puddings vary from fruit/yogurts/crumble/pies/or some sickly chocolate pudding . But because of the variety dd doesn't expect it to be junk all the time.
We have unhealthy snacks - biscuits or chocolate. DD has choice - she can reach the cupboard they are in. Only last night, whilst i was sitting at table and dp was serving dinner, dd went and got a chocolate from the cupboard and grinned - cos she knew she shouldn't. I said put that away and come and sit for dinner. She brought it with her and put it next to her plate, ate all her dinner up and then immediately picked up the chocolate to unwrap and eat, and even then only had a nibble and left the rest.
I do believe having the choice means the excitement is taken out of any junk food. Because i didn't cause a fuss about her bringing it from the cupboard the novelty had gone! I have too add, she hasn't done that before, and so i was intrigued as to what she would do, and pleased with the result!

I like the idea of no-strings food, but I don't think I'm brave enough to do it.

We have a lot of diabetes in my family, and some in DH's. Both DH and I are heavier than we should be, and I'd say we both have (some) food issues.

Our DS1 is 4. He eats pretty well, he eats a wide range of things. I (generally) don't use food as a reward for non-food things. (Be good and you can have a sweetie.) But I do say "If you're not hungry enough for tea, you're not hungry enough for dessert", when dessert is something more than fruit.

I am pretty twitchy about sugar and juice, as I find he'll fill up on those and not bother with savoury foods, if that's an option. Certainly that's what I saw with his cousin of the same age, when we saw her in the summer. She was living on juice, sweets, and dessert.

(DS1 is thin. And very active. Thankfully. So I don't worry about high-fat foods in his diet.)

I guess I think no-strings food is the ideal. But it's probably easier to manage if you yourself are very sensible with food. (I do eat a good varied diet, but I do have to think about it, and practice some self-control.)

Oh, meant to say: one unpleasant side effect of being fussy about sugar is, if DS1 is somewhere where sweets are easily available, he goes to town on them. He knows they're hard to get, generally. If they were more available at home, he might not be so interested (but I would eat them all and be unhappy).

Yes I think if you (and the rest of your family/care-givers) stick strictly to the plan it can work with toddlers/young children. But as some point they will eventually be subject to outside influences. My DS(4) certainly picks up on asking for sweets/ice-cream/chocolate at the appropriate place (corner shop/ice-cream van/till in supermarket) but hasn't yet started asking for McDonalds when he sees the golden arches. Sometimes I let him have them, sometimes I don't.

This is a really interesting thread. My mother has been anorexic or bulimic for most of my life (started when I was about 7 and is still going on now - I'm 37). Her attitudes to food have affected me deeply and I have a weight problem myself (considerably overweight). My biggest fear is that I will pass my problems with food onto my dd.

She is nearly 1 and so far has only had home cooked, organic, healthy food. She has never had sugar or cow dairy (we've started her on goats milk and cheese). I am passionately interested in what she eats and love spending time making and freezing meals for her.

I'm trying so hard to make sure that she has the right foods to eat, but know from bitter personal experience that it is probably the role models she has that will influence her food choices and attitudes later on. I dread that she will look at me in later life and resent me for passing on unhealthy attitudes to food.

My Dh and I also eat a totally organic diet, I just eat too much of it and exercise too little.

Can anyone give me any comfort that my daughter will not go through the same destructive experiences around food that my mother and I have?

Great thread. Before children I used to say that I will never tell my kids to finish their food - if they are full then that is enough. Bad habits form from feeling like you need to clear a plate when not really hungry. Also said I would never ever use food as bribery or treats - to avoid the self rewarding/confort eating that many adults (incl. me) can do.
Well, DD2 was allowed to have jam on toast instead of marmite today as she drank all her milk...and I have promised DD1 that she can have a buttons choc yoghurt for tea tonight if she is good all day at school and gets a sticker for trying hard.
Would love to change all of our views on food, incl. my own but find it very very hard. Esp as they see it happen all around you - inkder surprise adverts, grandparents treating them to an ice cream, chocs in their stockings at Christmas etc etc
Maybe we need to make less stress on the treat side but hyping up broccoli (which they do eat happily) just isn?t the same as talking up a packet of smarties

I handle it mostly like Rarie, though the sluglet is allowed chocolate simply because if you offer her melon, a nice piece of cheese or chocolate, the chocolate will always be eaten last. I can't claim to have made her this way, I think she has always had a healthy interest in food.

However, watching my food obsessed sister (vegan, organic wholefood everything) I have noticed how her children have developed food issues as a result of her best intentions. All 3 of her children are fussy eaters and I'm sure it's because they have learnt from their mother that being fussy about food is what you do. My daughter, on the other hand, will eat absolutly everything once because the rule has always been try it once, if you don't like it, then OK. Dh and I never say "ooh, yuck" to anything, especially in her hearing. It's also become a party trick, feeding her the strongest of blue cheeses, haggis, black puddings etc and she revels in the attention and admiration she gets from adults.

I've also found that giving her some choice (only 2 options mind, any more just confuses a toddler) gives her some feeling of control and makes her more likely to eat her meals. The other tactic I have is to get her involved in the food preparation. Children are more likely to eat something they have created out of a sense of pride in their own handiwork. Even the smallest child can load cheese onto a plate. Last night she had marvellous fun mixing eggs, adding pepper, sprinkling vegetables onto the spanish omlette and listening for the sound of the cheese under the grill.

I'll admit to the occasional, 'eat one more cherry tomato and you can have some smarties', but it's a rare event. I do wonder though, if it's a result of our attitude and the way we've raised her, or just a function of her personality itself.

One of the most sensible things my mum ever said to me was 'never make food an issue'. What she meant was never cajole, force, encourage or bribe a child re food.
You offer them food, if they don't want it for any reason say fine and take it away.

If they never learn that they can get attention for being picky or refusing food they never will.

My dd is nearly six, has a very healthy appetite and eats lots of things that children often turn their noses up eg fish

It really breaks my heart when I see parents chasing their children around the room trying to get them to eat 'one more spoonful'

We all love food in my family and none of the eight children (between siblings and I) have any food issues at all-or rather if they do,they're not tolerated/acknowledged and therefore don't exist.

I never coax my children to eat more of anything be it spinach or chocolate.If they want more,they have more (within reason) if they don't well it's not a problem.

I do use food as a treat because I do the same as an adult. A special occasion immediately starts me thinking about what I will cook or spurs me to find an extra special bottle of wine.
However,it's not a treat based on conditions of behaviour-it's just a pleasant surprise.

We don't have sweets and biscuits in my house,because the adults in it don't eat them and beyond about 9 months,no concessions are made for children (complete myth in any case that they need special food.)

They never whinge for stuff in the shops.
They do of course like sweets and ice cream when they get them but the occasions are few and far between.

With a few rare exceptions,I believe 'picky eaters' are made by the attitudes (however unconscious) of the parents.
It amazes me on the' What's for dinner' threads for example how many women are preparing two or three different meals a night. Why???

I do balls up plenty on the mothering front btw,before you start wanting to smack me one.
The food issue however seems ok,happily enough.

my dd [4 1/2] will eat very healthy foods and prefers fruit/nuts to cake and biscuits.. she has never liked puddings as in cake and custard etc but then we tend not to eat that stuff and she prefers plain cheese crackers and ryvita!! to normal sugar biscuits.i love biscuits myself although not obsessional about them! she has always had a taste for piquante type foods from very young..she adores all sorts of pickles.olives and adores seafood and will scream in delight if she knows we are having seafood ..her favourite is calamari and her fav veggies are spinach and cabbage ,now i dont know whether thats inherited because i adore them too and we fight over brussel sprouts!! i have always been very relaxed about food with her as to giving her choices to what she wants to eat today and i have found she will balance out her own diet ie one day shell eat loads of carbs..ie bread crackers potatoes rice pasta then we ll have a few days of her only wanting meat and will polish of easily an adult portion of meat the other days she will want to eat fruit all day..shae adores fruit and salads and thoroughly enjoys lettuces of all types much to the amazement of others on a restaurant..she will eat a whole trout [with head on etc] all to herself and she never ceases to amaze me in her tastes .i wonder whether its because she has a medditeranean father and of course we all eat very healthy or because there is no pressure on her.. i tend to believe its a mix but she`s a delight to eat in restaurant s with and adores french markets..particularly wild boar and venison salami !! but she doesnt like typical english food of spag bol, pies, stew/casseroles etc or anything thats mixed together.. i will carry on with letting her lead how much she wants to eat and what sort as i cant be bothered with all the stress of fights etc as in what i have with my son.. i wont go there ..i shall just say he has asd and has a terribly restricted diet!!!

this is a really interesting thread! I dont think that I put any strings on food, but will watch myself. I hate those kind of control things like "no pudding til you've eaten your first course" anyway.

Dd (aged 9) has started to tell me that McDs is VERY unhealthy, mummy! [hugely smug emoticon] We've always gone there occasionally when we're out, maybe twice a year.

Yaaaay! There is hope!

Fascinating discussion - thanks so much for the replies.

So... looking at what's worked for other people:
-reasonable amount of choice but control the choice, offering mostly healthy food.
-Laid back attitude, no coaxing and cajoling
-Let them decide how much they eat
-Sweets/choccies within reason. Keep low-key.
-similarly don't make a big deal of "pudding"
-get them helping to cook (and maybe helping to choose meals when making the shopping list?)

...(and I have no intention of cooking 3 meals!!).

Forgot to say, but dd has eczema and has reacted badly to dairy stuff and banana (not as badly as bobbybob's ds though ), so we've cut these things out for the mo. I get really fed up when people pity her, "Oh, pooooooor thing, how awful for her".

Er..... no. She eats a huge range of meat, veg, fruit, grains etc with a variety of herbs and spices, ie lots of different flavours, and in any case can't miss what she doesn't know about.

Like bambi06's dd, I'm not a great fan of bland "English" stodge and don't cook this much. Instead dds (and our) diet is quite Asian - lots of stir fries etc and I'm planning her first curry - a Thai green curry I think - will spare her my scary vindaloo for the moment.....

Anyway my fervent hope is that if she gets to like a big range of food now, she won't be so bowled over when she comes across chocolate/burgers/turkey dinosaurs etc.

re Moondog's point about adults using food as a treat: I had exactly that same thought after my first posting, because that's what we do too. Dp and I use any excuse for a celebration and cook special things at the weekend. Is it different because it's a treat without being a reward? And what about being taken out to dinner to celebrate passing exams? Isn't that a "reward for good behaviour"? Eeek, am I a hypocrite?

the odd bit of bribery really doesn't turn your child into a faddy food monster. HOnest. The promise of a trip to the sweetshop doesnt' mean they will think broccolli cheese is the work of the devil. Kids can get chocolate button treats and still eat mango.
My ds has always like a wide range of food, but will eagerly tell you that chocolate is his absolute favourite. He's a kid!

True enough Aloha, don't want to be too precious about this as taking things to extremes is invariably a recipe for disaster (as it were)

welliemum
food IS enjoyable though, we shouldnt be scared of that. in fact, in the UK people dont enjoy it enough! compare to france, spain and other countries that understand the art of living.

the problems only come surely when McDs or similar is treated as the "treat" food?

But Welliemum, going out to eat as a reward is a totally guilt free treat because it is an opportunity to try something new.

It's those Lutherans in my ancestry. If you're enjoying something you must be doing it wrong...

Need to work on this!