Please can I have your fav basic make by hand white bread recipe?

[RememberToPlaywiththeKids]

I am in possession of some extra strong flour and want to start making our own bread each day.

I'm also happy to start the night before and leave in fridge overnight etc

Also - when a recipe says to 'knock it back' what does that mean?

This is the recipe that I use most often at the moment. I use oil/butter and sugar because it helps with the keeping qualities of the bread and the crust formation, but they aren't strictly necessary.

1kg strong flour
2 sachets yeast
4tblspns sugar
1tblspn salt
4tblspns oil or melted butter
600ml warm water or combination of milk and water

Mix dry ingredients in a big bowl. Stir in wet ingredients and sort of squeeze through till mixed. Cover the bowl and leave to rest for about 15minutes. Turn out and knead until smooth and elastic on a lightly oiled surface. Put back in the bowl, cover and leave to rest/rise for half an hour. Turn out, knock back, knead a few moments. Divide into 2 pieces, shape and put in/on tin or baking sheet. COver and leave to rise until doubled. Heat oven to its highest temp. Slash top with lame or similar, brush with egg/milk or sprinkle with flour. Out in the oven and turn down to 200. Bake 40-45 minutes until well browned and hollow sounding.

KNocking back means knocking the air out of the dough after the first rise, also known as punching down.

quite similar to above but hey ho...

1kg strong flour
1sachet yeast
2 teaspoons salt
3 cups water (=600ml. Make with 1 part/cup cold to two parts/cups hot)

It's as easy as one, two, three, or at least one, one, two, three...

Mix it all together. Kneed. To kneed place gunk on work surface. Put one hand into the dough so you are grabbing the third of it closest to you. With the ball of your other hand push the remaining two thirds of the dough away from you so it stretches along the surface. You want to push it about a foot. Then fold the stretched dough back up and turn through a quarter so you can stretch it in a different direction first. When you begin kneeding the dough will be a mess and keep tearing and coming apart. It doesn't matter. Just keep on and you'll find it soon comes together. After ten mins (once you get the hang of the kneeding technique it'll take no time) it should be nice and stretchy. Well done, you have stretched your gluten.

now shape it so it can rise evenly. To do this pull the bit at twelve o clock towards the middle and push it in a bit so it sticks. Turn the dough round a bit and do it again. Do this 8 times till you've gone all the yay round and you have a nice round. Turn it over and put both hands under it supporting it. Move one forward and one back so it spins and the base can stick together nicely from the pressure. Rub a little oil on to stop it drying out, cover and let prove for a couple of hours till at least doubled in size.

Then punch it to knock the air out. Reshape as above. Put the oven on full with a baking sheet in and a deep tray underneath. When the dough is risen again boil the kettle. Put your dough on the hot tray and slash the top. Pour boiling water in the bottom tray. Shut the door. Check after ten mins. If it's browning quite a lot turn it down a touch. I like to take the tray out so it gets a good all over crust (helps it stop drying out in the bread bin) it's ready when it sounds hollow when tapped underneath.
It's better for you if it rises longer, aswell as tasting better so i like to use as little yeast as poss.

If you want to prove it somewhere cool overnight it needs to come back up to room temp before going to the oven. Straigt from the fridge this can take ages. I put it in our pantry which is cool rather than cold. Also i tear off a couple of little bits, shape them in to rounds, sprinkle with polenta and cook in a dry pan as breakfast muffins. That puts us on till the loaf's done.

The kneeding and shaping above is from the river cottage bread book and essential imo. I've made all our bread since i learnt it as it's so reliable.

That's brilliant thank you so much both of you and thank you moonfacemama for all the very much needed details!!!

Now what time of day do you both make bread? I don't have time first thing in the morning before the nursery run and starting work etc, so would starting it off the night before be ok to then continue it in the late afternoon / early morning? And then would it still taste nice the next day??

I don't know how you time it with having to be in and out of the house all day for 2-3 hours at a time minimum.

ah moonfacemama - do you only let it rise once?

no i let it rise twice generally...when i said reshape as above i ment again iyswim...! You could only rise it once, or several times. Just knock it back every so often so you get more oxygen to the yeast. Re shape in to a round each time so it rises evenly and stretches the gluten nicely. It's really very versatile. You can go out leave it for hours then come back and knock ten bells out of it and reshape for baking...or rise it again and repeat till you are ready. It actually bennefits from multiple rising. Better flavour, texture and nutrition (the yeast has longer to develop the b vits or summat). I think the yeast can die off if you leave it for ages but i just ignore it till convenient and have yet to have a problem. I have certainly gone out and left it all day. Just put it somewhere not too warm, away from the window or radiator.

ok that makes sense and sounds much more manageable with how my days are!

I started the MN recipe for white bread and have finally pulled it out of the oven and it weighs a ton and is bright orange!!

orange! How wierd...!

If your bread weighs a ton did you:

remember to put yeast in? (sounds v. stupid, but I forgot once and couldn't understand why my bread wasn't rising )

Let it rise until doubled after the second shaping?

Knead it for long enough?

I've done all of these before and it definitely affects the rise. You can never over knead bread and more is usually better than less.

Don't know why it's orange, not brown. Could it be something that you washed it with before baking. You need a very hot oven to give it a good crust and a deep colour maybe you didn't have it quite hot enough.

I usually make my bread in the evening so it's ready just before I go to bed, that way it is fresh in the morning, except at weekends, then I make some Saturday morning and Sunday afternoon. I don't know how it would work starting it the night before and not finishing it till next afternoon. You would have to keep it in the fridge, to slow the yeast. Yeast will die off after a while but I don't know how long that takes.

I def put yeast in and think I kneaded it for long enough.

I've just tried moonfacemama's recipe and MY GOD I found the kneading hard work (bigger volume than I had yesterday). Do you think that River Cottage would approve of me using my magimix dough attachment????

I am being wimpy I'm sure.

use whatever suits, i bet river cottage peeps use magimix sometimes , though i promise the kneeding gets easier very quickly. It's more a knack than labour iyswim. You also soon learn how much or little you can get away with. Stretch a little bit of dough to test how well your gluten is stretched... Grab a small piece and hold it at each side using your thumbs to stretch it aswel so it makes a square, see how far you can stretch it before it tears. If you can make a little window that's translucent you'll have great bread. (though this only really works with white) though tbh i sometimes kneed it a bit short of this and it's perfectly passable.

Was your oven hot enough last time? Should be as hot as can be! How's this batch turned out?

Well this batch has turned out extremely professional looking! The tasting will be for breakfast. I've got 2 loaves and the kids have made some 'shapes' and a roll. Can I freeze one loaf or how many days will it last for? we don't eat alot of bread.

I did find that my kitchen spent the day covered in flour and half my work surface was taken up with rising dough! How do you have the space to do it every day and are you constantly cleaning up a load of mess?

I parked the dough on the top with an up turned bowl on top to cover it. That seemed to work well and then I just bashed all the air out, gave it another quick knead and left it to go again. This lot had 3 rises before the oven and then I put it too high up in the oven!! I had to prise it out at the 10 minute look in and fiddle with the shelves and shove it all back in again but it looks like it survived. Even DH was impressed.

Yay. Am very glad for you.

Will freeze. You can even slice it, or cut off half to freeze. Tbh fresh bread doesn't last very long in our house. And there,s only really me and dh, ds still gets most of his second hand iykwim. It will certainly be good for tomorrow and the day after and fine for toast after that, then panzanela bread salady thing, or bread pudding, or croutons or breadcrumbs... Often i might split the dough so we have pizza or calzone for tea, and the rest becomes a loaf, or loaf and rolls, or muffins, or part breadsticks or flavoured bread like focaccia for with tea, so it rings the changes a bit.

I just do all the kneading on the same spot of surface and rise it there etc and let it stay floury till it's done. We don't need to do it every day, a loaf that size lasts a couple of days, used as above.

How did the baking fit in with your day? We do just as you describe and knock it back when it gets a bit rumbunctuous, as often as needed till we're ready to bake it. Last night it proved out on the surface overnight to go in first thing. It went a bit floppy as i picked it up so i just tucked its edges together a bit to plump it up a bit and twas lovely.

Crikey - I think you might be a bread queen - how do you do the bread sticks and the muffins??

Also - does it have to rise for an hour directly before it goes in to the oven? ie knock it back, reshape, rise and then oven an hour later?

It fitted in fine with the day but I think it was a big deal because I haven't really done it before. I'm sure with practice, it will just be as 'intrusive' as making a cup of coffee. I felt as if I was in the kitchen all day what with bread making and meal prep!

I am a Dan Lepard fan and his method doesn't require much kneading at all. But it does take time, and I do it when I have to do things around the house anyway.

To make breadsticks, you just divide some of the dough into little bits and roll into pencils. Let them rest for about 5 minutes and then bake in a hot oven until they are crunchy and fab(between 20 and 30 minutes.)

To make english style muffins, you divide the dough into equal size bits, shape into balls and flatten with the palm of your hand or roll the dough out and cut into rounds with a cookie cutter. Sprinkle a baking tray with cornmeal and lay the rounds on it then sprinkle more cornmeal over the top. This gives them the kind of grainy feel that muffins have. LEave to rise till double an hen either bake in a hot oven until risen and browned or cook on a greased griddle for about 7 or 8 minutes a side.

To make rolls you just divide the dough into 100gm portions and shape into rounds like the main loaf then flatten slightly or into mini batards. Leave to rise and then bake in a hot oven for about 20 minutes or so. Rolls are nice if you knead some cheese and onion or some chopped cooked mushroom and onion into the dough after the first rise. Also nice with cumin and coriander seeds kneaded in.

TBH, I make bread every day because I have to. I have a slightly larger family and we use a lot of bread. I don't find it intrusive, it's just something that I do. IF the bread that I make ever got a chance, it would last about 3 days for eating and then you could make it into toast, croutons, teabread or whatever.

LordCOpper, I like Dan Lepard as well. His method works really well, especially when you are busy. I use his technique so that I can do things like bring the washing in and hang more out at the same time as making bread.

Yes. So it's mix, knead, shape, prove/rise, knock back, shape, rise, oven. Though you can repeat the knock back, shape, rise bits as needed, as you know.

Bread sticks and muffins both need very little second proving so are good if you are keen to get something on the table asap. I do like it if i can get a meal aswell as a loaf out of the process.
Breadsticks...just pull and roll some dough in to long bits, quite thin, like a pencil if poss. You can coat in seeds which is nice, or knead in herbs etc. They don't take long in a hot oven. Experiment with how crisp or doughy you like them. A drizzle of olive oil/garlic oil when hot out the oven is nice.

Muffins i described above. A small handfull of dough, shaped into a mini round as if to rise, squashed a bit and lightly coated in polenta/cornmeal. They can rise for a while but i have given them just ten mins before when hungry. Heat a dry frying pan, ideally a heavy one, to a medium heat, and pop the muffins in. Turn them back and forth a couple of times to help them cook through without burning. You can have them just like that, split and buttered, but if when you open them they are a little under done you can cure this by toasting, which is lovely any way. We do them on the griddle but a grill would work.

It does get much easier. I can happily and quickly knock up some dough in the morning, leave it to rise while i go out for the morning, shape in the afternoon and bake. Or if i'm out all day pop in the fridge to slow the yeast, get it out when i get in, a quick knead to help it warm up and rise ready for the oven that evening.

That's probaly when i'm most likely to chop of a bit to make pizza, just chuck on some cherry toms, garlic, olive oil and cheese and not even bother with a sauce. Just remember to put the rolled out dough on the hot tray before you put the toppings on. Dh always forgets this! Have your toppings ready so go so you can get it all in a hot oven asap. Salad in a bowl, tea's ready (and you have a loaf for the morning). We use a third of the dough for the pizza.

Cross post!

gracious - thank you both, you've both been incredibly helpful!

I love the thought of seeds and herbs etc, I will experiment.

The pizza - do you knock back, shape and then toppings on and in the oven? Surely it doesn't need to rise again?

How delicious! I can feel a whole new world opening up!!!

More questions later!

You don't need to rise pizza again, putting it on a hot tray combined with the oven spring gives it enough of a rise.

The amount of dough from 1kg flour makes 3 pizzas.

We make all our own bread, but don't hand kneed anything, it is all done in the kitchen aid.

One tip, use honey instead of sugar, it tastes nicer, and the yeast feeds off the honey easier than it can refined white sugar.

now I'm confused about the dan lepard method - he doesn't knead at all does he?

He does - instead of intensive 10-min kneading in "traditional" methods, his method does 3 light knead (10 seconds or so) over 30 minutes. Typically you mix the dough, leave for 10 minutes, give it a 10-second knead, leave for 10 minutes, 10-second knead, leave 10 minutes, then another 10-second knead. I really like this method - you can really see the transformation of the sticky dough into "proper" dough.

REMEMBER: What has been contributed above looks really good and helpful. What I do, generally, is known as the 'Half-sponge' method and has improved keeping qualities. You mix half the flour, all the yeast and all the water the night before and leave out at room temperature, covered.

The following morning, mix the rest of the flour with any sugar and oil/butter (you can add linseed, sunflower seeds or anything else you wish to at this stage) and then add to the overnight mix (sponge). It is the longer fermentation time that results in better keeping qualities. I find that, with a wholemeal loaf done this way (and minimal kneading like Dan Lepard) I manage to produce a loag that will actually keep for a week, about the time it takes for me to eat a 2lb loaf on my own.

Great thread ... have made two batches by hand recently - both turned out pretty well despite too much yeast and too cool and oven first time round .

Frenchfancy ... when you use the Kitchenaid do you follow the K/A instructions re making dough - ie. add all but 125-250g of the flour and then only add remainder of flour when all liquid is in - and then 5 mins kneading? That's what I've been doing but I'm wondering whether there's a better way?

How do you know when you've done enough kneading? I find that I work away and the dough comes together and then after a short time it starts to get harder to stretch out so I stop them. After the first rise, it's beatifully elastic etc but then when I knead it again i only do it for a couple of minutes - is that right