Start up tank getting cloudy

[baddyfreckleface]

We have had three Danios for almost a week now and the water has got pretty cloudy in the last two days.

It's a 19L tank and has the filter it came with. We let the tank run empty for 4 days as advised by the place we bought it. They then tested our water and said it was fine so we got three Danios.
The fish seem happy (as much as fish can)

Do I need to clean them out? Is the filter good enough or do I need to get a better one? The lady in the shop gave me the impression they wouldn't need cleaning out properly (gravel etc) much at all but after reading up some more maybe I do?

I'm afraid you need to go back to the place where you bought them and give them a right bollocking because they didn't give you very good advice.

Firstly, 19 litres is too small for any fish, let alone danios, which are zippy little fish and need a lot more space than their size lets on. A shoal of danios (they should be kept in groups of 6 or more) needs about 70 litres or more. The more space and tankmates you can give them, the happier they'll be.

Tiny tanks are so difficult to maintain, one little thing goes wrong and its amplified in the small water volume. 70 litres might sound challenging but honestly, it will be so much easier to cope with. Your fish won't get sick and you won't have to spend tons of money on trying to make them healthy again.

Secondly, a fishless cycle takes about 4-6 weeks. 4 days is long enough to check for leaks and to see if all the equipment's working but it's not long enough for the biological cycle to get going.

You do need to clean them out regularly- water changes every week, cleaning the filter, vacuuming the gravel. The lady in the shop sounds like she doesn't know her arse from her elbow tbh.

Sorry if that's a bit blunt, I've had a bad day and I'm in dire need of a large cocktail. If you want to ask anything else, please do and I'll reply later when I'm drunk in a better mood (apologies in advance for typos). Don't beat yourself up, pretty much everyone starts fishkeeping by getting ripped off by pet shops.

Pets at home? They still say just a few days and start with hardy fish. Poor hardy fish. :(

Have you got a friend with an aquarium that you can pinch some filter medium and add to yours to get it going? It's not really about the quality of the water at the start, as much as the effectiveness of the filter. We did a fishless cycle (added ammonia to the water and let that feed the filter) and it still took a few days to settle down.

I wouldn't worry about cloudy water, that will settle as the filter becomes colonised with the right bacteria.

You will need a gravel hoover thing to suck up the rubbish from the bottom of the tank on a regular basis as well as doing water changes whenever the nitrates get high.

Argh bugger!

Yes it was Pets at Home. Buggering buggers!

I got in such a mess reading up on the internet and the woman really seemed to know what she was talking about! EauRouge, how about you get drunk and come and bollock them for me?

So dd(5) is hoping to get three more fish in a week. That's not going to happen is it?

I don't know anyone else with fish or fishy knowledge even, so can't get anything from them.

I will go back to them ASAP and have words. Although I am a big wimp.

So for now I need to clean them out. I will get a hoovery thing, and do I just leave in some of the water with the fish in and replace it gently? Will it be the wrong temperature though?

I will also look out for a MUCH bigger tank. Can't afford new though.
Can you recommend a better pump?

Why didn't I know there was a 'fishnet' here before I got the poor things?

Oh and sorry you had a bad day EauRouge. Enjoy the wine

Don't panic , yes the tank is too small, look for another one ebay and gum tree are great for tanks, I have also picked them up at the local tip. In the mean time you can get a treatment for the water called 'quick start' it's not ideal but in your situation I would give it a go in hope to save the fish ( I have used it before with success ). Keep doing small water changes and hope for the best, what ever you do 'don't add anymore fish'.

Thanks. Definitely no more fish!

The fish seem to be fine. It's just that I have noticed the water is slightly cloudy.

So I will pick up the treatment and change how much of the water?

Follow the instructions on the treatment ( I can't remember how often you need to change water whilst treating ), you don't want to change too much because you will remove any good bacteria that is forming but you don't want too much ammonia ( from their poo ) either. As it's such a small tank it will be hard to get the water to stay at a good quality. A lot of people assume a small tank is easier to look after but it is much harder as it's hard to keep the water at a good quality. I find my big 200ltr tank a lot easier to look after ( though when it does need a good clean it can take me a while ).

200 litres!

Sorry another question.

We are going away tomorrow for four days. I won't get time to get the treatment. Do I need to clean them out? Refresh some water? Or just leave them as they are?

My parents will feed them but I can't ask them to faff too much

Trying to do a photo, mostly to prove that they aren't swimming blindly in gunk, also to check that the filter is big enough and in the right place?

The water may get more cloudy because it is a bacteria bloom ( totally normal when a tank is still cycling ) and it may clear itself in a few days, there is a chance you may loose the fish. I would change a small amount of water before you go and then hope for the best, make sure they are not over fed or you will get a ammonia spike in the water.

Thank you.

I will change a bit of water tomorrow. Also have spoken to my mum and she will fetch the treatment and get going with that.

I am searching for a tank as we speak.

Really don't want these fish to die as dd is already very attached and trying really hard to care for them. (She even woke up tonight after an hours sleep and panicked because she hadn't fed them).

I have tweeted pets at home and am hoping for some response tomorrow.

Hopefully we will have Sparkles, Shimmer and Stripy in a nice new big tank ASAP with some new friends to shoal with.

I will gladly accompany you to P@H to give them a bollocking. You are not the first person to be in this situation and until they start putting animal welfare ahead of profits, you won't be the last.

This is a reliable website for info. It recommends 80 litres as a minimum size for danios.

If P@H give you any shit (and they shouldn't), tell them that the RSPCA recommends a minimum tank size of 45 litres and ask why they are selling something less than half this size. People have got refunds by stating that tiny tanks are not fit for purpose under the Sales of Goods act. But really, you shouldn't have a problem; I think they know that they're taking the piss and just rely on people not asking any questions.

Well I tried to give a bollocking on the phone. But failed miserably!
I said about getting bad advice, RSPCA guidance, 70-80 L tank for Danios etc.
She was very nice but basically ignored everything. Was amazed at 70-80 L for Danios. She said the 'fish governing body' guidelines were their guidelines.

She also said that I should leave the water and that new tanks often cloud up but to leave it to 'cycle out.'
Then she said as long as I had the water conditioners it was fine. Well no one had mentioned water conditioners to me! So she suggested I come in to them tomorrow.
Am I buggery!

Tomorrow I will delay our holiday to go to a proper fish shop and get good advice. I will also be buying a bigger tank and setting it up to start its fishless cycle while we are away.

I am angry with myself for not being more knowledgable when I went in to PAH in the first place, but in my defence I did go there for advice. I followed their advice and asked questions. Just a shame they didn't really know the answers

There isn't a 'fish governing body', unless she means OATA which is a trade organisation and doesn't have any tank size guidelines, they just have a customer charter and a code of conduct which if they sold you fish with a brand new tank they're in breach of anyway.

Doesn't sound like she knows about the nitrogen cycle very much.

P@H really do not do themselves any favours with customer service like this, they have a horrible reputation. They were on Watchdog a couple of years ago for their shitty practices.

Have you got a tough DH or friend you can set on them? I know, I hate confrontation too, I got DH to sort someone out on Ebay for me the other day.

I might get my dad on them when we come back from our weekend away!

It was OATA that she was talking about. They didn't sell me the fish with the tank. Said it needed 3 or 4 days to cycle.

We'll I have a lovely new tank now. Took me all afternoon to set it up! Just hoping it can get going and my three Danios can last until it's ready.

What do you suggest if they start looking unhappy? I did a 20% water change and put some treatment in for the tap water. It's looking pretty murky though. Is it worth putting them in the new tank earlier if they need it? Will three small danios effect the cycle too much?

I want to do this tank properly but really don't want to lose these fish either.

My lovely new tank. I will get some plants but the lady in the fish shop (the better one, who told me all about the good bacteria etc) said to wait for the fish first.

Will there be enough places for them to hide or do I need more?

No, you don't need to wait for fish first. If you plant them now then the roots will be growing by the time you add fish and they'll be less likely to get uprooted. Some people think it slows down the fishless cycle but I've never found that it makes an awful lot of difference.

It does sound like you've found a better shop but be careful to do plenty of your own research too. Websites and books can be really hit and miss, but this is a very good one. Don't worry that it says 'tropical', it's good for any freshwater fish.

I would be tempted to put them in the new tank and then start treating it with 'quick start', neither of the tanks are cycled but the ammonia levels will spike quicker in the small tank. Buy yourself a water testing kit, they are expensive but they last for ages so well worth the money, then you can check the water and do water changes when they are needed. There's also a few forums where you can find people near you with mature media ( sponge from their filters ) that they donate to help people cycle their tanks ( google, 'fish forums' ), if you can find some media it will cycle your tank straight away.

That's true, I'd move them too. You can move over the filter media from the smaller tank to get things going a bit quicker. They'll be much happier in the bigger tank.

Thank you for all your advice.

Well we are back from our hols and the small tank is nice and clear with three happy fish. The new big tank is very cloudy. I am assuming it's just a new tank thing. I will wait until it settles now as there seems to be no rush as the little tank is much better.

Do I need to do any maintenance with the big tank before the fish go in? Shall I keep it going for a few weeks now?

Don't worry too much about how water looks- you can't tell the ammonia and nitrIte levels from looking, and a bit of cloudiness is likely to be a bacterial bloom which is completely harmless. If both tanks are uncycled then the larger one is definitely better. Even if the smaller tank is cycled, you can just move the filter over to the larger tank and all the good bacteria will go with it. Have you got a water test kit?

Hope you had a good holiday btw :)

Thanks. No I don't have a water test kit yet. I am going to get some fishy stuff tomorrow (think we need another couple of hiding places and some plants) so will have a look.
It's like chemistry!

Great holiday thanks although I need a rest now!