Those opposed to surrogacy, what are your views on egg donation?

[wholeeverything]

I'm a gender critical woman with a high degree of skepticism about commercial surrogacy. I'm also facing the possibility of never having my own child.

Thinking hard about egg donation, I am conflicted about my own views about the ethics of it, from the point of view of the egg donor. What are your views? I am particularly interested in the views of those opposed to surrogacy. Do you see it as the same issue?

I feel like I cannot think objectively because of my own fertility issues. I am personally fine with the ethics of the child's rights, in that I would view it as similar to adoption with a child having the right to know their biological origins, and that then being something for me to decide if I am OK with at a personal level. Where there is full transparency, I don't see it as violating the child's rights.

But what about the young women selling eggs? Is it invasive, dangerous? Should it be viewed like surrogacy or selling an organ? Is it only considered by women in financial hardship, i.e. effectively coerced?

One of the comments you see on every episode of long lost family - without exception - is the comment about 'looking like someone'.

Psychologically it definitely is important and anyone saying it's not isn't being wholly honest. It's important in the sense of the question of 'where do you come from?' 'what is your story?' and a sense of belonging. There is something innately important about this.

It's isnt just the odd case - it's a comment in every single case you see on the programme. It's significant. We can't and shouldn't gloss over this.

The flip to this is picking donors with preferred characteristics - such as Cambridge educated. That's into the realm of eugenics - just as it would be for sperm donors. It's problematic. People don't want a donor of low economic, educational or aesthetic standards. They want the 'best' options available.

Are you referring to the adoption of babies only? If you are prepared to adopt an older child, there are options in many countries. In the UK, the US and Canada this is very common. In other countries, though less common, it is often possible.

I would consider the impact of egg donation on the child's sense of identity. I know one child who was conceived via donor sperm and he is finding it very difficult. The mother might not have handled it well (she told him too late), but egg/sperm donation probably causes identity issues for many children conceived in this way.

I also know someone who almost died during IVF due to an overreaction to the hormones. I don't know a single well-off woman who donated her eggs. I think it is yet another way to exploit poor women.

I think, unless the eggs are "left over" from an IVF cycle, egg donation is unethical, and even then women might see no other way in order to finance IVF.

My concerns about surrogacy are the exploitation of women - pregnancy and birth carry physical risks, and the emotional toll for the mother and infant, and risk of a massively traumatic custody situation like happened early on which is awful for the 'intended parents' the 'surrogate' and potentially the child.

Egg donation carries less of these risks, although the IVF process can be grueling or risky and I would hate to see women exploited e.g. in poor countries or young and naive women.

But...I have been through IVF, and during the process considered donating eggs, as it was comparatively easy for me (aside from 1 episode of hyperstimulation). I understood the desperate desire for a child and part of me would have liked to do it, as a way of sharing the gift of having a child. So I don't think it is always exploitative. If a non-disempowered woman is doing it altruistically, and perhaps in the situation of having leftover eggs from her own cycle the downsides are relatively minor (e.g. the child having to come to terms with not being genetically related to their mother).

Adoption outside of the US is hard. The wait is often long (years), and the children available have a lot of challenging issues - many either have severe health problems / disabilities, or are older and have been abused. Yes, these children need loving homes, but not everyone is cut out for that level of parenting.

Can you do some research about where the eggs would be coming from (e.g. your country or poor countries overseas, from other IVF clients etc)?

I considered egg donation twice in my life. Once in my late-twenties I looked it up, perhaps viewing it as an extension of giving blood or volunteering. At that point I didn’t think I wanted children so had no idea of the reality of the emotional or physical implications. I also think that I really wanted to be perceived as ‘nice’ or ‘generous’? Goodness knows why! During my research I happened to look at an American clinic and they referred to their donors as ‘angels’, illustrated by liberal model-style photography of course.
I never took it any further but looking back now I find my willingness to affect my own healthy body (for literally no benefit to myself) really quite startling.

Roll on a few years and I have had my own child so realise what a precious thing is at stake. At this point a close family member confides in me that they have infertility issues. I seriously consider coming forward for egg donation.

I look into it but don’t take it forward, thankfully. And what a mistake that would have been! Ten or so years later the person in question has successfully had their own children and became embedded in a cult-like religious group. Despite our close relationship for many years, we since had a major rift. We are on better terms now but I would be devastated if they were raising a child who was genetically part-mine, in an ethos with which I profoundly disagree. So I think that even known donation can be very risky, as you just don’t know what will happen in life.

@TheKhakiQuail I am an adopter, so I am aware of the risks. Contrary to common belief, the risks aren't massively different when adopting a baby though. I don't know the OP, but if you would consider adoption, I would keep an open mind and learn about all the options before making decisions.

Yes, the wait can be long, but people tend to forget that having a child biologically also involves waiting. It doesn't involve an approval process though and parenting adopted children is a different ball game, so I don't wholly disagree.

I think it’s unethical for the baby.

But also for the young women being targeted at uni etc who are donating eggs because they want/need the money. At their age I had no maternal feelings. They have no idea how they are going to feel in 18 years time if the child wants to meet them. What if they later wanted their own child but it didn’t work out?

I know a couple who ‘adopted’ an embryo. This was an embryo created via IVF along with other embryos, but after successful IVF the genetic parents decided they didn’t want anymore children but not did they want to destroy the embryo. So they donated it.
I don’t know how accessible this is in the UK. But might be an ethical alternative as the woman is much, much more likely to have made the choice for her own reasons than egg donation.

Im opposed to surrogacy but id give you my eggs. I don’t know why but that’s my gut moral reaction since you asked

I am opposed to both surrogacy and egg donation as a de novo procedure - the only circumstances I can reasonably accept egg donation without ethical issue for the donor is if a woman who has had eggs harvested for her own IVF treatment has been able to complete her own family and wishes to donate any remaining frozen gametes that she doesn't plan to use herself. And even then there is still the problem of genetic identity as the last few posters have mentioned.

As with surrogacy there is always a power differential and one of the things that really disturbs me about egg donation is that younger, less financially stable women are being financially incentivised to go through an uncomfortable, painful procedure with possible serious medical consequences, and unknown effect on their future fertility, to sell the it genetic material to an older generation. It feels like the bodies of young women are being strip-mined for the older generation. While I can feel very sympathetic to any individual experiencing infertility I don't think that sympathy should blind society to the broader issues

I'm not sure that not being related to your mother is a minor issue. And i say that as an adopter.

With adoption, the facts of the situation are made clear - with egg donation it's all about secrets and putting the adults' needs first.

A child born from egg donation is unlikely to be allowed to be distressed about knowing their genetic background. Their parents will present it as a good thing. The child can't find its egg provider until 18 in the UK. I think that's totally unreasonable.

I think that is a really important point. These children will grow up with the same untrue narrative that some adoptees were (and in some places still are) given. You are lucky to be in this family. You should be grateful. Your bio mother was an angel who wanted to give us, your adoptive parents, the chance to have a child of our own. Isn’t it wonderful! Meanwhile the child feels a profound sense of loss which they are unable to articulate without feeling they are being disloyal/mean/ungrateful to the family in which they are growing up. End result is psychological problems, abandonment issues and problems forming and keeping relationships going forward.

I donated my eggs. I wasnt a young woman coerced. I was a mum of 5 who had seen friends go through the hardship of ivf etc whilst being incredibly lucky to have conceived easily myself. Easy pregnancies and births etc.

I saw it as sharing some of my luck. I donated via a charity. I got expenses. I had counselling as part of process to decide if I would be allowed to donate.

I view it as an ingredient, but like baking. Putting it bluntly those eggs were going down the loo each month. So I gave them away. The couple who got my eggs had twin boys.

I wrote a letter for any children conceived to have at age 18. And if they were to ever contact me that is fine. But I dont see them as my children.

I actually went on to have another bonus baby a few years after donating my eggs.

And my children are the ones I chose to grow, birth, nurse, look after, fight for (youngest has complex needs). Being a mum is more than biology. I see that with friends who have adopted.

I absolutely agree thst there must be openness and transparency for the children and the charity I used had this policy. Parents would explain age appropriately about donor egg etc.

But for me it was a choice, I was not coerced into it. I spoke with my own children about it and they are all aware they have half biological siblings out there. 4 of my children are adults and its occasionally mentioned but not something any of them are bothered by. If the donor children were to come into our lives I would very mucb follow their lead in terms of what they want to know, if they wanted an ongoing relationship/friendship.

I am totally orocgoice, as early as possible, as late as necessary.

I am not sure on my views on surrogacy ither than knowing I could NOT do it myself because of the attachment formed snd the risks involved. I was very fortunate that I suffered no side effects with fertility meds, egg retrieval etc it really was very straightforward for me. But I would not put my body through a pregnancy for anyone else, even if it was an 'easy' pregnancy and birth. I am too old now anyway at 47.

There is a couple called Sam and Dan where the woman has done surrogacy twice abd they have 3 of their own children. They remain in touch with couples they did surrogacy for including seeing the children. I am not sure whose eggs they used, but wholst its something that can maybe be done in a positive way its definitely very complex. And I can see its a situation women may find themselves trafficed into.

Anyway I dont know. But my perspective as a donor is one of privilege as a white, reasonably educated woman. I didnt 'need' the money. It was very much a choice.

I was pressured into egg donation from the clinic because it would save me almost 50% on Ivf and I did have a lot of eggs so they kind of made me feel as though it would be rude not to as I would never need that many
As it happened, 32 eggs were harvested 16 donated, eight turned into blastocysts. Two were inserted and one baby out.
It didn’t work for the other person that received the donation at all
The odds are just terrible.
And then I felt positively evil for the fact that I was relieved it didn’t work for her because I would’ve hated my child to be out there wandering around the planet and me not knowing if it was okay

I'm probably biased because I can't donate my eggs but I think egg donation is very different to surrogacy. My main concern with egg donation is that the women donating could be exploited.

@Emigree @TheKhakiQuail I've tried to identify how I could opt specifically for shared eggs. I'm not sure it's possible to do this with certainty. These seem to be given to general 'banks.'

@onlytherain I think I would want to adopt an infant. Maybe that's selfish, I don't know. I have adopted an older child (step-) and love that relationship, but it is different. Domestic adoption is next to non-existent here, and I am very unconvinced it's possible to ensure international adoption is ethical. Very much open to guidance on this, however.

@Madthings @TheKhakiQuail @tvde Yes, I think I'd donate my eggs if I could, now that I understand the challenge of infertility. I think it's something I would do altruistically, like donating blood, although I'd be far more inclined to do it as part of a public system rather than through commercial companies.

Thank you everybody for your feedback :-) I'm still very conflicted and as a result it's probably not the right route for me. It's a hard journey. That said, I'm not convinced it's a straightforward moral wrong or exploitation, where I am about surrogacy. Thank you all for your intelligient and frank reflections :-)

I’ve only read about half the thread but I’m sorry for the situation you are in. Your thoughtfulness sets you apart from the very many people who don’t think twice about the ethics of their decisions.

I just wanted to add that someone close to me was having egg retrieval for ivf, and they nicked an artery. She had to have surgery to deal with the internal bleeding and was anaemic for months and had various post surgical issues. You already know it’s a potentially risky procedure but it made me feel more clear on my position that egg donation carries an unacceptable level of risk to the woman donating. As already discussed, if there’s a way to know that eggs are surplus and would be destroyed anyway- that feels different but I’d be surprised if that is possible.

By relatively minor I meant relative to issues with surrogacy. The identity issues for children who are adoptees or born from donor eggs or sperm can be significant for them. Open adoption doesn't always fix this either as the relationships can be difficult and complex. But compared to the massive minefield of surrogacy I don't see it as in the same league.

I think surrogacy should be banned. It makes me uneasy that some women wait until their 40s to ttc and then use a much younger woman’s egg. It’s exploitation.

I agree with this.

Also, as far as I'm aware, these aren't necessarily "spare" eggs, the donor may not be left with enough eggs to guarantee her own successful pregnancy.

My DD donated her eggs when she was a teen, very much against my wishes. I was furious the NHS facilitated and permitted this exploitation of a young girl so some wealthy older woman can have a child. We never talk about it now so I don't know if she regrets it, but she was so young and idealistic I think it was appalling.

Yes, I'm in my 40s. I didn't make some conscious decision to 'wait until my 40s' because I was having too much fun though. I didn't meet anyone, first of all, until later in life. And I think generally society encourages later settling down by emphasising the importance of career progress, and by making it financially very difficult to buy a home. Id very much welcome something like the French initiative of writing to every young woman encouraging them not too leave it too late.

I massively regret every choice which has left me unable to have children. I asked a question because I'm not keen on selfishly exploiting young women. I certainly didn't just consciously and uncaringly "wait until my 40s" knowing that there'd be a host of young women to sell me their eggs. Certainly many women do not think through these ethical issues. But there is an entire state-regulated industry selling them lies. We should place blame there, not with women.

Yes I feel the same way. I’ve had my kids now so don’t need my eggs anymore. If a family member or close friend asked I’d have no problem doing it. I think it’s much easier to explain to a niece who you share a lot of genes with anyway than a stranger. Would I donate my eggs randomly? No probably not. But in this case I’d struggle to say no as I would donate my blood or kidney too if they needed it and I could

Don't you think it would be hard seeing the child grow up when it is to all dna purposes your own flesh and blood? Like, if you disagreed with the mother's choices in parenting? It seems complicated to me.

No because I would have seen my sister do all the hard work of being pregnant and birthing it so I don’t feel like I would feel it was mine. And my sister and I look alike enough that it wouldn’t really be an issue if the kid looked like me.

I would worry about this too