Tired of the pro-choice lie

[Honesting]

I keep seeing people bring this up again, especially after Charlie Kirk’s assassination, that he once said if his 10-year-old daughter became pregnant through rape he’d insist she carry the baby. People call it misogynistic and vile. To be clear, that’s not my view and I’m not here to argue the pro-life case.

I actually have mixed feelings about abortion. I'm okay with the MAP and not okay with abortion up to the point of delivery. Where to draw the line is something I haven't decided yet.

What I do want to say is that it’s dishonest to pretend CK's position comes from hatred of women. The pro-life stance is very consistent and, internally, very coherent. If you genuinely believe an unborn child is a human being with rights, then ending its life is always wrong, no matter how it was conceived. We’d never allow a raped woman to kill her newborn, even if it was the product of rape. So if you see the foetus as having equal rights, then by that same logic, it shouldn’t matter whether conception was through rape.

I know the other side, and I understand it. I’m not dismissing the complexities. But the idea that the pro life argument is born of misogyny is simply false. It comes from a clear and reasonable moral framework: once human life begins, it carries human rights.

It’s this.

in the UK abortion has just been decriminalised. It’s available on the national health service. The morons rocking up with these sorts of bollocks posts have not a clue ankut how very different the UK situation is

If he believed women should submit & husbands lead, he did. By definition.

quite

Listen, points to you for your empathy to children born of rape and other posters, but I’d already said up thread that Im talking about sex where a pregnancy can occur so no anti lgbt accusations are warranted. If you have anything to debate in the substance of what I’ve posted please do address it, but all this nitpicking and tangential whataboutisms towards someone defending women’s rights isn’t a good look for you, or the best use of our time.

@hamstersarse , you aren't a man, are you? I disagree strongly w much of your posts, but ai also think it's v wrong for you to be called a man for disagreeing, even if some view your views as sexist.

It is a problem. There’s a bunch of young kids who have been radicalised by the right in America. They see abortion as some kind of thought exercise in morality. They don’t know anything about pregnancy, birth, child rearing, complications, risks, life, anything really. To them it’s just a question of when does life begin. What’s wrong. What’s right. Debating it on TikTok.

It’s just an extension of the virtue signallers on previous trends, and a strange problem of the left being so far left and the right being so far right that they are kind of looping back round and actually meeting each other in some kind of terrifying authoritarianism.

And then yes also you have the garden misogynist males as usual.

Sorry, the anti lgbt comment wasn't about you but CK. I didn't want to accuse you of that at all, I apologise for the misunderstanding.

You may want to brush up on your biology. The womb as a part of your reproductive system has a significant effect on your wellbeing. There's a reason why women are put on HRT after hysterectomies.

I can see where you’re coming from a bit. I’m a practicing Catholic and believe life begins at conception. However, over the years my views have changed and I can see it for the grey area it is. No woman wants to have to get an abortion they are in a desperate situation and making abortion illegal doesn’t stop abortions it only stops safe abortions. The most effective way to lower the rate of abortion is better sex and relationship education, access to contraception and more social welfare programmes, better childcare, early years, maternity leave etc but oddly enough the right and the pro lifers aren’t really supportive of that.

But you can't take the womanhood out of pregnancy. When men can get pregnant and birth chidren, and therefore be forced to do so by other men, then we can consider misogyny doesn't have a part in it. Or if the men were to keep quiet and leave this debate entirely to women, maybe then I could agree it's not about misogyny - although I think we all know women can be misogynistic too. Until then it looks to me like another way for men to control women under the guise of caring about unknown foetuses.

Some women are genuinely not particularly phased. They would obviously prefer not having to do it in the sense that it is a process that has to be organised and gone through. But some - many - women don’t have abortions because they’re desperate and have no other options. Some
women could quite realistically continue the pregnancy with adequate resources. But the point is that it is not the option they prefer. But indeed there also women who would prefer not to have an abortion - and it is baffling that so called pro lifers aren’t banging on about increasing support to single mothers and increasing measures to make men support their children. It’s as if (most) pro lifers aren’t actually driven by concern for the actual lives these children will live.

The anti-abortion stance is the ultimate in Virtue Signalling. Damage, violence and death for women, serious cost to society, zero cost to the Virtue signalling.

We all know the sensitivities of this issue. We can debatm endlessly. How we react in the actual situation is when it matters, and it matters to the person who has to deal with it - the woman who is pregnant with a child that she does or doesn't feel she can carry. I respect the right of that woman to do what is right for her. All these arguments about when life begins, when does a foetus become a living being etc can be debated endlessly. I can, on the one hand, say I do not want to continue this pregnancy in one scenario (5/6 months gone, older mother, no energy or resources to sustain a child) and still mourn a miscarriage at six weeks with a grief that is profound.

A man might not be able to square those two positions and that's because he will never have to. I don't actually believe that Charlie Kirk would have allowed his child to go through a pregnancy at the age of 10 - I believe, like most men, he would have made the situation ' go away' in the way that all those men who are 'God-fearing' would have made their girlfriends' pregnancies - quietly, privately and out of the spotlight. Meanwhile proclaiming the sanctity of life and the embryo. I actually don't care what Charlie Kirk thought about women and pregnancies and childbirth - he believed the Bible was a practical guidebook of life - I cannot countenance how any intelligent person can believe that. But I respected his right to have that belief. But those beliefs should never be the basis of laws that affect my life.

This is true re different standards often for people when actually in that situation.

This is an interesting essay by a pro-choice author about this.

https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/

Agree. Moral superiority. Dangerous.

It’s interesting because when you look at the stats on abortion it is those who are higher class who are causing the uptick. It’s on the self id’ed left and right, but more so on the left.

The good news is that the experienced adult generations are actually quite consistent in their views and it’s very stable.

I hope this is just the naivety of youth. But I am worried it’s authoritarianism. We don’t talk enough about libertarianism or liberalism in this country. It’s actually the main bed rock of our value system. And it never gets a look in.

If you search libertarianism online then most kids will end up on reddit where Americans have co-opted libertarianism as an American conservative movement. They are pro guns and anti abortion. Most kids probably don’t realise there’s a difference between liberalism and socialism. And the left arent even doing socialism really. I don’t know what they are doing.

It’s a mess really. We need better history lessons or maybe even PPE in secondaries.

TBF that hypothetical was very far fetched. There are very few 10 year olds in the West who are pregnant from rape. In fact, abortions due to rape are a really tiny minority of all abortions.

All men.

Apparently he thought that people need guns to defend themselves from a despotic government. Nuts

Apparently he thought that people need guns to defend themselves from a despotic government. Nuts

I don't actually believe that Charlie Kirk would have allowed his child to go through a pregnancy at the age of 10 - I believe, like most men, he would have made the situation ' go away' in the way that all those men who are 'God-fearing' would have made their girlfriends' pregnancies - quietly, privately and out of the spotlight. Meanwhile proclaiming the sanctity of life and the embryo.

Me too.😒

Yes in much the same way that those Conservative ultra christian anti abortion voting congressman insisted their mistresses, wives, girlfriends get abortions. Scott Lloyd, Tim Murphy, Scott DesJarlais.

The key point in your argument is so if you see the foetus as having equal rights…

I don’t. The foetus doesn’t have equal rights to a newborn because to stay alive it needs its mother.

I don’t believe there’s anything magical about what some people call the spark of life. An ant has it too.

You want me to argue for forced, forced vasectomies?

I don’t quite know where to start other than to say I knew the left were intolerant of other views, but this is quite something. You’ve said this a few times now so I think you are serious,

““Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.”

You could do with some Christianity in your life, seriously

You're happy to argue for forced birth. That's the point. You only see how wrong it is when it's a man's life, body and freedom at stake. When it's a woman's, you don't care.

I guess, much like Kirk, that goes back to a fundamental belief that women are lower status to men.

So rape victims don't matter because there are so few of them?

I guess the doubling of the maternal mortality rate when abortions are banned also doesn't matter because it's only some women. Is this what you meant when you said numbers matter?

And you still think a stance that dismisses child rape victims because oh well whatever it's not that many so we can forget them anyway and also writes off women's deaths as less important than the theoretical life of a foetus is NOT misogynistic?