Growing Up Gypsy- Stacey Dooly meets 3 young women

[AliasGrace47]

I study history rn & though it's not directly related to my topics, I've become v interested in the Roma community.
It was really interesting imo to see the way they were combining modern w traditional ways. I'd read stuff on here about Roma women sometimes being discouraged from education & jobs, and while I had reservations about the fact they all seemed to have been pulled from school early, it was good to see that the two w jobs they clearly enjoyed were supported by their families.

Several of the things they valued - closeness to family, no sex before marriage are things that so-called 'reactionary feminists' like Louise Perry & Mary Harrington are promoting a lot now. I have reservations about number 2, though I can see how no sex before commitment would work well for a lot of people..and clearly if someone doesn't want to have sex before marriage they shouldn't be pressured. Otoh I don't agree w pressure the other way..

The closeness to family I thought was great. I was brought up by my maternal grandmother (& mother) and the bond Chantelle had w Rita felt v similar. I guess the flip side of always being w your family is pressure, but otoh the way the other 2 lived w their families seemed quite nice, a good counter to the isolation a lot of my Gen (Z) seem to feel... I did think the ban on going away w female friends before marriage was too much.

I have more thoughts, but need to go study now...would love to hear what others who watched think!

Here's a link to anyone who wants to watch-
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0028vp5/stacey-dooley-growing-up-gypsy

For my feminism it involves the dismantling of the patriarchy and gender roles just don't fall into dismantling the patriarchy. I work on VAWG and I see how these things exist in inside of a pyramid and they all contribute to the subordination of women in society.

I'm English traveller by birth but grew up mostly new age/hippy traveller! There's a lot of crossover. I grew up in caravans etc, was pulled from school at 13 and education wasn't encouraged. So some similarities with Roma, Romany and Irish but also a lot of differences (and tbh a lot of historical snobbery and prejudice between the groups - my family would never want to be associated with Roma or Romany or Irish and the same is true vice versa although I have good friends from all the groups - one of my best friends lives in a horsedrawn vardo and is Roma by heritage, another is Irish traveller and is very traditional, no sex ed, little education, married young etc). It's complicated!

Checking the program info, they were all Romany gypsies. It's notable they were all settled. I think most gypsies are, checking stats?

Pp says young girls wouldn't be pressured into this, though. I agree def about education, the point is that the traditional life is fine if that's what someone wants, but w no education beyond Year 7, it's harder to choose. Esp if you have kids young. That goes for girls and boys, ofc.

Thanks- just read the most recent one- very interesting!

@ThejoyofNC Thank you so much, that's really interesting. I'm sorry for all the questions

I see the issue w PSHE & biology - essentially, in the gypsy community would you say there are taboos about discussing the body ( as you mentioned pregnant rather than expecting)? Is this why there is unease about biology & PSHE? Or other reasons too? Sorry, I get if you don't want to say..

I can appreciate that about high school kids discussing sex etc - do gypsy teens typically not have non-gypsy friends, to avoid this sort of situation?

What if someone wanted to marry a non gypsy- would this be OK, or not? The girls in the show were clear they wanted to marry another gypsy, which I can understand.

That's good women aren't pressured to have a lot of children. I think big families are lovely if mother's free choice. The value on family seemed a really positive part of the program.

I understand there's v different norms for the sexes. It's good that people who don't feel they fit aren't shunned, obvs if people are happy w the norms that's good too.

On the holiday issue though, is it because there's a fear girls might be vulnerable to assault if out in a foreign country without men? Or is the thinking that girls might be tempted to disobey traditional values?

I understand if you don't want to say. It's been v kind of you to answer so much.

Just to add one more query : What is the attitude to divorce? I read previously it was v strict- I can understand this, presumably it would be allowed in a case of DV though?

That's terrible- I need to check the stats but def sounds credible if many leave school at 11. This is what I can't understand : I have a close friend who was homeschooled as a child in the primary years & she said the gov were careful to check she was actually being taught.

It seems from what pp said, and I've read elsewhere, that gypsy children are not given much, if any, education if withdrawn but instead learn practical skills. Is there no government monitoring of this? Surely this is illegal? They are entitled to withdraw their kids but not to deprive them of education completely. Could they not try to set up a tutoring program or a gypsy-specific school, which if single sex, might avoid the issues pp identified re sex? After all, the Jewish community has faced cultural loss issues but has coped w that by having Jewish specific schools so children can be educated as their parents want. I suppose a gypsy school could exclude biology if the parents requested (not ideal but better than no education) just as some Ultra Orthodox schools teach inaccurate science so as mot to contradict their interpretation of the Torah.

Travellers that are at our local school leave at the end of Year 6 (or pulled out just before SATs), are then home schooled. A couple of the families have tutors for an hour a week.

The boys work with their dads learning their trade. The girls learn to clean.

It seems to be changing in a couple of families though. One boy went to secondary school and is now in Year 11. Another boy in his class went to secondary school, got excluded so went to the other secondary where he got excluded again. His younger brother went to the second secondary school and was excluded and then was allowed back in after 6 months (I think he was pulled out before exclusion actually happened which is why he was allowed back).

At primary, the children are not allowed in PSHE sessions on relationships. They do seem to know far more about sex than any other child though...

can i ask?
what did you do all day as a girl/woman growing up?
What did your parents (specifically mother) do all day if you cleaned/took care of the younger kids?

do you feel like you have missed out, with no education after 13?

I’ve worked with Irish traveller women on a large traveller site. A large number of the women couldn’t read or write and would bring me papers and notes so I could read them for them. It seemed a very restrictive life.

It isn't a stereotype though. I work closely with the traveller community and I can assure you it's the norm. I once asked a 9 year old why she wasn't at school and she looked at me like I was stupid and said 'Because I'm 9?'

Do you mean Irish travellers or gypsies?
If gypsies, I suspected as much.. wasn't sure of the extent as much of my info up to now came from MN threads.

Wouldn't be pressured into what? Do you mean they can choose to stay at school or can choose not to become the household drudge?

Would it be OK to ask what your experience of them has been like? What are the main issues aside from education? Do you think it's improving overall or not?

She said they wouldn't be pressed to do the housework though they would learn the skills. I think that was on page 1, the poster joyofNC.

I wonder what happens if they refuse to learn the skills. What child wants to spend their days cleaning?

If it’s not acceptable to even talk about pregnancy how would a traveller girl be able to talk about her biology if she had a female health issue? How would she raise a prolapse, suspected endometriosis, or infertility?

I wonder... Ditto for boys who'd prefer not to learn trades.

Worrying....that's a good point. I had considered danger of sexual abuse and DV (similar to other closer, ultratraditional groups like the Amish or Ultra Orthodox Jews) . But not fertility.. And as we saw & pp noted, Chantelle even using the word 'pregnant' to discuss her miscarriage was radical. The Internet can be useful in spreading knowledge like this.

Mortality rates are worrying with the traveller community. An unwillingness to engage with medical professionals and to keep matters ‘in house’ is a problem. Personally I’ve found the women I’ve worked with can be very charming but childlike,and many of the men have the behaviour emotionally of young teenagers developmental wise.

While we are talking about women, there is also an issue about men growing up in the various 'travelling' communities and not being allowed to have an education.

There was an interesting comment by a women who worked in a traveller organisation. She wondered if the fact that she spent so much time visiting young traveller men in prison was related to the fact that they had been taken out of school at 11.

Above all else its about a right to an education which is being denied to some children

Prisons are bursting with men with little education. Children from traveller/gypsy communities are exempt from the law on education.

I think they are taken out of education because it would pose a threat to the community. For example, they may meet someone from outside the community or once they have options, choose a different life.

I wonder if the gypsy community is the same? Probably to some extent, esp as pp said, the purity laws will impact on how health is discussed. I know Irish traveller communities are different but do have stuff in common - what were the main issues you dealt with, if it's ok to ask?

oh goodness, literally all sorts. Simple health matters, benefit applications, reading and explaining official letters, dealing with the police, schools, council.