Why don't we believe women?

[RockyFowlboa]

Woman A decides that her career is important and fulfilling, and that she wants to work full time. She waits until later in life to get married and have her children. Once she becomes a mother, she carefully selects a child care center for her kids with good class sizes, and feels satisfied that her children are getting socialization and an early education from specialists, who she has gotten to know personally. They spend plenty of time as a family outside of working hours. Her husband is a good partner and father, and they split the financial, domestic, and child rearing responsibilities equally. She loves him very much. Should anything go wrong with her marriage, she has the ability to support herself and her family. She has savings set aside for emergencies and retirement, and she has a social support network. She has a car in her name which is paid off, and she has partial ownership of the house she lives in. She says she is happy with her life choices and wouldn't change a thing.

Aaaand of course, there will be swarms of people, both men and women, telling her she can't possibly be happy working outside of the home and spending so much time away from her family, that her career is meaningless, that she can't love, respect, or desire her husband if he's doing the chores, that their marriage is doomed, that their kids are being brainwashed and neglected, etc.

Woman B decides that working for someone other than her loved ones isn't for her. Once she gets married and has kids, she quits her job and stays home with them, as the child care centers in her area, by their nature, don't allow parent to get to know the carers very well, and class sizes are large. She feels that she can provide her children with a better, more individualized early education, and she arranges play dates for them regularly. She finds fulfillment tending to the house, garden, pets, and children, and loves the amount of time she gets to spend with her family. Her husband is a good partner and father who appreciates the labor she does very much, and in return, he works hard at his job to provide financially for his family. He is an active participant in the care and raising of the children when he is home, and helps out with the housework whenever Woman B needs it. She loves him very much. Should anything go wrong with her marriage, she has marketable skills, prior work experience, and enough education to be able to support her family, in addition to the expectation of being awarded alimony and child support in the event of divorce. She has savings set aside and a social support network. The car her husband paid off for her is in her name, and she has partial ownership of the house they live in. She says she is happy with her life choices and wouldn't change a thing.

Here come the swarms again, men and women, telling her she can't possibly be happy slaving away for a man, not contributing to society or getting out of the house, that she's a mooch/leech/golddigger, that her husband wants a mother/bang maid instead of a wife, that she's being abused/conditioned into believing this is fulfilling, that she's living and being treated like a child, that she'll be screwed when she gets divorced, etc.

Why? Why can't we believe that both women (or even women who have made different combinations of choices) are happy, satisfied, and fulfilled? That they know what's best for themselves and their families?

In the same vein, why can't women talk about the reasons for why they've chosen certain things for themselves without other women feeling attacked? For instance, if Woman B says she doesn't want her children to be "looked after by strangers," she's not inherently judging or putting down working mums who use child care. Or if Woman A says she has "more to offer the world than just housework and child care," that's not necessarily an insult to SAHMs. Is it just insecurity about our own choices that is causing us to interpret these sort of explanations as personal attacks? And if so, wouldn't the solution be to stop participating in the swarms criticising women in the first place (at least as women, if we can't stop men from doing it?)

The very way you have expressed yourself brings problem s

"Looked after by strangers " is being negative and critical. Most people actually take the time to get to know the "stranger" who looks after their children so they are not leaving them to strangers - the implication is y if are putting your children in way of "stranger danger " - so the very terminology you are using makes people feel judged

We do tend to believe the women in those scenarios. You are describing a small, very narrowly defined subset of both WOHM and SAHM. In your descriptions, both women have husbands who do their fair share at home. Both women have enough career experience to support themselves and their children. Neither woman is in a precarious position.

the women who come into these boards or who talk about their situations elsewhere rarely have thought through their setups very well. They have saddled themselves with men who don’t do chores, who don’t want to marry, and who keep assets solely in the man’s name. The women often have little education or career prospects, even if they WOH because they allow their career to be secondary.

it takes active planning to balance motherhood and financial security. Financial security provides an escape route should domestic abuse occur. A woman can’t just blunder along and hope for the best for herself and her children. She has to plan and strategize every step because the stakes are too high.

It's because no matter what they do, women can't do anything right. Take a look at the Daily Heil, one of the most read UK papers. Rarely do you see genuine support for women and what is always first and forefront is how they look.

It doesn't matter what you do as long as you don't look old or fat. Heaven forfend. Women are judged on a completely separate criteria to men and nothing they do is right.

When I say "I don't want my child being looked after by strangers," I mean I don't want my child looked after by strangers. I'm not saying "Your children are being looked after by strangers if they're not being looked after by you."

Some child care centers aren't set up for a lot of parent-carer interaction, and many of them have high turnover rates. I send my DD to pre-school two days a week, and I don't even know most of her teachers' names because they're regularly getting new ones, rotating class rooms, and by the time the end of the day rolls around, they just want you to pick up the children so they can go home; they don't want to stand around and chat. (I have considered getting a nanny, but I also don't want other adults to be alone with my child, for fear of abuse occurring without anyone to report it to me. DH and I are looking at better schools, but they have long waiting lists and can be choosy.)

On those two days, she goes to school early in the morning, then I pick her up around 6pm, and by the time I get home it's time to make dinner. Then we have to eat and I have to clean up after dinner, and by the time I'm finished, it's time to put her to bed. I don't get to spend a lot of time with her on those days. If she went 5 days a week, I would genuinely feel like she was being raised by strangers.

But, I don't know how well other mums know their children's carers. I'm sure many of them know them very well, and I certainly don't look down on their choices. I assume most women know what's best for their kids.

Both of those scenarios are perfectly normal and happen all the time and I would find anyone questioning them quite odd. Maybe some of the women in A would like more time with their dc, maybe women in B would like more time away from their dc, but presumably the majority of them are perfectly happy. Unfortunately however there is no doubt that lots of women are in group C, feeling trapped in marriages with selfish men-babies who don't pull their weight.

Woman B needs to check her assumptions - alimony is a thing of the past in virtually all cases, and prior work history is counteracted by a long gap out of the workplace.

Alimony is still very much a thing, at least where I live, especially amongst couples with a large asset/income gap. The courts aim to preserve the less well-off spouse's "standard of living."

I've seen women put down all the skills they've acquired through managing their households on their resumes... Dunno how well that worked though. Still, even if women stay at home, it doesn't mean they can't do some kind of professional work, like running an online business, babysitting others' kids, bookkeeping, etc.

I hadn't had a job in years and I still got hired at the last one I worked.

Is it that women are not believed, or that their life choices are up for public criticism? The same happens to men btw.

Both, I'm sure

Yes but by saying you don't want your child looked after by strangers - think how that comes across - like does anyone want their children looked after by strangers?

Why do you need to say "strangers" rather than "someone else" ? One comes across as judgemental , making assumption and the other as neutral.

No, I don't think anybody does. But the fact of the matter is that the carers in the centers most accessible to me are strangers. So if someone asks me why I don't want my kid going there for all or even most of the time, and I reply "I don't want her being looked after/raised by strangers," it's not a judgement on what other mothers are choosing.

It makes me wonder if other mums feel like their kids are being looked after by strangers, and that's why they're defensive. Right? Because if you know they're not, then what's the big deal about someone saying that?

I think it's probably part of trying to fend off mum guilt that's a result of constant criticism; nothing a mum ever does is good enough

I believe women.

Who are the 'we' you are trying to include is all in?

Is it the circles you move in? Because it's definitely not mine.

Yes, it didn't sound UK-based -- and that's where most of MN are based, so the answers you get may not reflect your own experience. Not a criticism, by the way.

I did wince slightly at this:
"Once she becomes a mother, she carefully selects a child care center for her kids ... Her husband is a good partner and father, and they split the child rearing responsibilities equally."

Even with all your provisos, you are still assuming that the mother did the seeking-out-childcare bit.

That's not to say whether her husband helped or didn't. Both scenarios happen. The point is that the woman is making what she believes is the best choice she can for her children, and if someone doesn't believe her reasoning or satisfaction with her choice, that's icky.

I’m not so sure. Your comments as to the opinions of swarms of people aren’t really disbelief of but criticism of your hypothetical women’s life choices.

Not one has said they don’t believe the woman who says she chose career that she actively chose it, not one has said they don’t believe the woman who chose family that she actively chose it.

Example, the framing of “I would not want my children raised by strangers” isn’t disbelief at a woman actually IRL choosing childcare but a criticism.

Example, the framing of “I have more to give than being a wife and mother” isn’t disbelief at a woman IRL choosing to be a SAHM, but a criticism.

I've definitely had people tell me that the reason I want to stay home and not have a "real job" is because I've been brainwashed by men, or disbelieve me when I say I'm happy staying home. I'm not the only one, either.

I don't see those sentiments as inherently critical, but expressions of one's own desires. If you know your child's carers, they're not being raised by strangers. Why take offense if you're secure in your choice of child care? If you choose SAH motherhood, you probably already know you're capable of more. But again, if you're secure in your choice, why take offense?

And sure, there are women who are catty and critical of other women's choices. That's contributing to the insecurity and mum guilt. So like... let's just stop it.

In my experience people are largely supportive in real life.

In SM the dynamics are different and people split hairs over terminology, take up entrenched positions etc.

Before SM the media pedalled strong views, but these swung with economic needs. When we needed women to go back home, it was best for children to have a mother at home, but when the economy requires women to work, it’s best for children to socialise and develop speech etc.

But irl most people have the intelligence to grasp that different things work for different situations.

There are a significant number of women on mumsnet who don't believe women and/or criticise their life choices. Isn't that a circle "we" are both in ?

if you're secure in your choice, why take offense?

Are you sure it's offence that you are seeing?

I have commented to younger women that I have seen quite a few friends shafted financially in later life by the decision to work shorter hours while children were small, and that you do have to look to the long term, not just the balance of life and income while they are tiny. I'm not offended by the choice to stay at home, just... cautious on their behalf.

Interesting. I suppose I view the disbelief as fake and simply a mechanism to criticise a woman’s choice, or her intelligence, or her education, or her relationship (choice of partner), etc.

It’s a cousin of faux concern imho, which is why such expressions cause offence.

I suppose what I see is defensiveness in response to someone's reasoning. Like if someone says "I chose to stay home because I want to spend enough time with my children," it's often reflexively taken to mean that working mums don't spend enough time with their kids, rather than that particular mum believing that it's not possible for her to have a good work/family balance. They take it as an insult when they don't need to.

If someone says "All women who cut back on working hours or SAH end up financially bereft in the long run because they don't plan ahead," that's reasonably offensive. Whereas if someone says "This is a thing you have to worry about if you work less and you need to plan ahead," that's just advising caution. I see both versions being said. Sometimes it's not believed that women have taken that into account or that they even understand and accept the risk.

To be fair, as you are in the States, things are different to the UK. I understand we have better childcare regulations over here.

What's that like? I'm jealous