Weird discourses around pornography and masturbation - we need to change the debate

[Cambiarenome]

I was listening to a podcast recently (Diary of a CEO) with an interview with Andrew Huberman - just out of interest as I dont really know anything about him but the talk around pornography infuriated me. Huberman was somewhat against men using pornography (or at least overusing it) and the interviewer seemed to think it would be impossible to tell young men to stop using pornography and masturbating. Two things struck me.

Firstly, no mention at all of the damage that the porn industry does to the women in it and to women as a whole. Of course, the only reason he seemed to give for limiting porn consumption was because it could affect mens sexual performance and satisfaction in the longterm. So far, so predictable.

Secondly, the interview (Bartlett?) equated masturbation with porn use. Yes, I think it would be difficult to say to anyone, no you cannot masturbate but what has this got to do with using porn? They do not have to go together, surely? Do men have no imagination? Can no one masturbate without porn these days? I see this confusion a lot and I think it is also why those who are anti-porn (as I am) are often labelled as prudes and completely against sex in any form. I hate this!

I think we are grossly underestimating young men if we think they cannot cope with the message that porn is harmful. Porn in its present form is relatively new and we know it is harmful. Why arent we telling young men this? Why are we pretending it is just fine to watch hours of women being degraded and that it doesnt have any negative effects? Thoughts?

I don't find it surprising that men discussing something only saw it from their point of view.
They're obviously unaware that we've only had internet porn for a relatively short time and to say men can't masturbate without it is ridiculous.

Porn is extremely harmful to women and girls from making it to the effects of consumption. For many men, half the population is a marginal issue.

That is true but I have also seen it written on here by (presumably) women who seem to think that no porn is unreasonable because it means no masturbation!

I know I sound like an "everything is late stage capitalism" wierdo but...

I think that, actually, there is a massive commercial need for people not to feel they have control over the things they spend money and/or time on. It's essential to advertising, capitalism in general that impulsiveness, not self - denial or delayed gratification. Stuff like Stoicism has been reduced down to "don't cry" when really it's much more than that. Obviously porn use and men is the most obvious example of that - masturbation is literally free but it needs to be monetised somehow. Of course men like looking at porn etc, I am not saying they have been manipulated into thinking they like it. But I think there is deliberate manipulation in the message that you cant have masturbation without porn.

I am not explaining myself very well, but what is happening feels like the plot of Brave New World - everything needs to be monetised/turned into something that can be monetised. Diary of a CEO is completely committed to that idea - it's it whole thing.

Obviously communism always goes horribly wrong so that isn't the answer either.

I know I sound like an "everything is late stage capitalism" wierdo but...

I think that, actually, there is a massive commercial need for people not to feel they have control over the things they spend money and/or time on. It's essential to advertising, capitalism in general that impulsiveness, not self - denial or delayed gratification. Stuff like Stoicism has been reduced down to "don't cry" when really it's much more than that. Obviously porn use and men is the most obvious example of that - masturbation is literally free but it needs to be monetised somehow. Of course men like looking at porn etc, I am not saying they have been manipulated into thinking they like it. But I think there is deliberate manipulation in the message that you cant have masturbation without porn.

I am not explaining myself very well, but what is happening feels like the plot of Brave New World - everything needs to be monetised/turned into something that can be monetised. Diary of a CEO is completely committed to that idea - it's it whole thing.

Obviously communism always goes horribly wrong so that isn't the answer either.

I don't know why that posted twice. Also though I am not a man and can't exactly have a "do you need porn to masturbate and why" type conversation with men because that's not exactly a normal topic of conversation. So the above is conjecture but yes, it's odd.

Of course they don’t need it, they enjoy it, immensely. So they consume it. Add to that the addictive nature, and you have hordes of men (and women) defending it.

actually I think an awful lot of things are late stage capitalism

The thing is that with pornsick men, they actually can't climax during masturbation without porn. They can't climax with a woman without doing things they saw in porn or fantasizing about them. Eventually they get so numbed that they end up spending hours per day in the search of a video which will get them off.
So it is valid to say that while heavy porn users can masturbate without it, it wouldn't be worth their while because there would be no spoogey ending.
These porn zombies are ruined creatures, barely even human anymore.

Ah, OK.

I started the pornography conversation with my children (a daughter & a son), when they were about eleven. Just before they started secondary school.

I said 'If I don't tell you this, someone else is going to'

And I was completely honest about porn, and how harmful it is to anyone that wants an honest and loving sexual relationship.

And the harm that pornography has done.

I have a discourse.

I also have a brother who's 30 & a nephew who's 28, and speaking to them, I do think it's their cohort that has been fucked by porn. Gen Z, were brought up at a bad time really, they were marinated in pornography at a time when they were growing up.

It's pretty obvious how pornography blossomed with algorithms and the Internet. It's obviously been wrong'uns that have promulgated the idea that porn is ok, hence algorithms push an idea, and so on, and so on.

I do think we have a lost generation. Of utterly perverted men. Gen Z is pretty much fucked when it comes to sex.

I do think the youths may be a bit more sensible though.

Hopefully.

One has to keep speaking. Always. Keep speaking.

And Huberman, just a swarthy tit really.

So.

Ya know.

Also ah!

I did tell both of my children that masturbation is absolutely right and fine.

The act of self-love is brilliant and healthy.

And that the mind is wonderful.

And all one needs!

😂I kept on hearing about him but I was not impressed tbh. Interesting about it being a symptom of late stage capitalism. I guess men have always masturbated and yet porn is relatively new but that makes sense. What a mess!

Masturbation if fine, and healthy and bloody normal. I stumbled across it myself in the 80's with no external stimulus.

It's a good thing for the mind and body. A knowledge of oneself and ones sexuality. All good.

The idea that women should be degraded so some bloke can have a wank?

The idea that men's sexual satisfaction somehow trumps women's need just to be?

The algorithms that have constantly pushed a horribly perverted and violent idea of the sexual act?

Not OK.

I've spoken to my children about this, about the fact that I don't know anyone of my age that didn't find 'adult material' in a park or woodland.

So, there were always men that sought some kind of external stimulus, but it was shameful, that's why they hid it out of the house.

But, these were the men, that, when the Internet took wings, saw an opportunity to access material at home, they could hide it at home, on the computer!

Joy!

And these were the men that pushed and looked and when Internet porn was birthed, it was always going to be led by the kind if man that hid porn mags down the park.

The wrong 'uns.

The men that were Not OK.

And they are the ones that have been driving algorithms from the start. So we have reached a point where the Not OK blokes, the wrong 'uns, are now informing the sexuality of young men. It's a fucking mess to be sure.

My DS has a couple of MtF trans friends, both of them very lovely and sensitive young people. I do see their gender confusion as a rejection of masculinity as their fathers have it (both have dick-head dads), rather than a buring desire to be a woman.

"we know it is harmful"? And how do we know that? And what about the 30 percent of women who consume porn? And how about defining what "harmful" is? Or that porn is not a monolithic entity? So many questions…

To answer your question, no men don't have an imagination as I asked my partner this recently. I know he uses porn and I said what's wrong with using your imagination, don't you have one and he said no. 🙄 Basically they are just lazy (a lot of them, porn makes them lazy).

Tbh I always found it quite charming and healthy that the men I knew mostly masturbated to memories of their ex-girlfriends, whereas I had a huge library of extremely complex and unreal fantasies with a cast of thousands, not including myself.

But I think the monetisation post above is great and thought provoking.

"men don't have an imagination"? Well, I (a man) think it's similar to why films exist. Or paintings. Or literature. Sure I could imagine a story like in a film. A picture like in a painting. An intrigue like in a novel. That doesn't take away the immersive effect of the creative work in question. The reason most men (and quite some women) use porn is because it is efficient. It provokes arousal more easily. Just like any of the aforementioned creative works give a more immersive experience. About "we know it is harmful", "hours of women being degraded", "all of the damage", "women as a whole", these are quite simplistic notions. Try contemplating collectivist vs individualist, the rift inside second wave feminism, the vast variation within the pornographic experience, habituation vs catharsis… You'll find the greyscales if you are open to the human experience.

Yes, the imagination is wonderful. But "all one needs" is not explaining a thing. Because it's simply not true. The civilisation and the human experience contains variation. Policing the behaviour of others, because you don't happen to enjoy the same stuff is… well… illiberal. Couples need to be connected, but the recipe for that is not one and the same. Because people and relationships are different.

"utterly perverted men". Yes, I hear you. So Gen Z is fucked? But they are way less heteronormative than your own (and my) generation. And puriteen is a thing. Does that count?

It’s Steven Bartlett - this is how I would expect discussion on this topic to go.

Just stumbled on this and had a laugh, because several of these recent posts are an excellent illustration of how masturbation can be verbal, too.
You probably know which posts I mean.

@Cambiarenome Do men have no imagination? Can no one masturbate without porn these days?

Please stop and think about this. What exactly do you think men would be masturbating to using their imagination?

It will involve someone they have seen in real life, who has no idea that a man is masturbating while thinking of them. So basically, a man would be masturbating while thinking of someone, without that person's consent. How is that any better than porn?