Punish the men who pay for sex

[cupcaske123]

Great article on the dangers of sex work and Labour's pledge to halve violence against women.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/aug/25/punish-the-men-who-pay-for-sex-rather-than-the-women-lured-into-that-life

Women being killed is a feature, not a bug, of prostitution. You only have to read a sample of the appalling online reviews to see how men view these women as objects who exist to satisfy their sexual desires, however violent. In one study, a significant minority of men who buy sex openly said their payment entitled them to demand any act of their choosing; more will truly think that. The very notion of consent disintegrates in a situation where a man is paying for sex: how can a woman meaningfully consent with someone she knows could kill her in minutes if she says no or is perceived to make the wrong facial expression

Spot on. Violence is inherent to this industry, and it does not matter whether or not an individual punter is himself violent. He's still benefitting from the violence of other men and enabling it.
Punters belong in prison.

This is a very poorly written article. The author Sonia Sodha says that sex buying was criminalised in Sweden in 1997. In fact it was 1999. She says that there the demand for prostitution has declined significantly. This is false.

There were surveys in Sweden in 1996 and 2008. Before and after the new law. There were 3 key statistics. The proportion of Swedish men who were active sex buyers showed an increase from 1.3% to 1.8%. The proportion of Swedish women who had sold sex at some time in their life increased from 0.3% to 1.1%. In the most recent survey in 2017 it was 1.5%.

The proportion of Swedish men who had bought sex at some time in their life decreased from 12.7% to 7.6%. This is the statistic that is always used by the supporters of the Nordic model. Of course they don't tell people that in the next survey in 2011 it went back up to 10.2%. In the 2017 survey it was 10%.

^^ your stats may indeed indicate the Nordic model has failed, or they may not.

The increases you mention happened over a time period when the world became more pornified etc.

To know, we'd need to compare your figures to the same figures in other countries. If the growth in Sweden was the same or less than other countries then I'd still go for a system criminalising the punters and helping the women (and men) who sell sex get out.

Wouldn't you?

@SuePine69

The surveys did not specify where they paid for sex, they could have flown or driven to a part of Europe with legalisation. Also was the legislation was passed ahead of implementation hence the 2 days. I can't see why we can't do something to stop the exploitation of women - the vast majority in the trade and not through choice

If you look at how the Nordic model is doing in different countries, in Northern Ireland the official report said that the amount of prostitution is on the increase. In the Irish Republic the official report doesn’t say whether prostitution is increasing or decreasing. What it does say is that women are still being arrested and that resources have not been made available to help women exit.

The evidence is very patchy but I think this will be true for all the Nordic model countries. The big selling point of the Nordic model was that it shifts the burden of criminality from prostitutes to their clients, from women on to men.

However, in many countries it was never illegal to be a prostitute. It was illegal for women to work together. That doesn’t seem to change, although in the Irish Republic the penalty was doubled. The penalty is often imprisonment. Men though only get a fine for paying for sex.

We should be able to agree that women who work together should not be arrested. They should be helped to do something else if they want to.

They should be helped to do something else if they want to.

This is so crucial. There needs to be investment in helping these women explore other options. An holistic approach that tackles issues such as mental health and addiction.

In Italy the men get prosecuted but the women do not.

However there is little to no help for the women either before they resort to sex work or after.

I used to think that in a country like Britain most prostitutes are not coerced but in poor countries they probably will be. I’ve changed my mind about that because of what has been written by experts. For example Elizabeth Pisani is an academic has worked in many Asian countries and talked to prostitutes there. She said they do it because they get more money than working in a factory.

She wrote that she was on a plane to East Timor where she worked for the health ministry. She noticed two young Chinese women on the plane. Suspecting they might be prostitutes she befriended them. They told her that their friend had done the three-month stint selling sex to the Chinese community in Dili six months earlier and had been able on her return to buy a car.

I've researched prostitution in Asia and although there's a lot of trafficking and coercion, there's also a different attitude to it. For some it's a way of making money like any other job and having money is more important than how you make it.

I see no reason not to criminalise sex buyers, and I'd go further e.g. on a second or third offence they go on the sex offenders register or names and photos are somehow otherwise publicised.

I'd also like to see pornography moved back into the realm of the 'dirty mac' man, or the 'once in a blue moon at a stag party' sort of thing - IP blocking of the porn and streaming sites like they did to the filesharing sites would be a start. Coupled with robust education to all that porn and the sex industry is damaging not liberating, and that together our society should aim to minimise rather than normalise it. (Not in a prudish way either - we should still celebrate sex and love - but we acknowledge there's a dark side to it and 'anything goes' isn't the right approach.)

Basically make it harder for men to do this sort of thing, force them when they do do it to have to take active steps to circumvent norms, so it's clear when they do it that they're acting antisocially. And make it a genuinely risky endeavour for them.

What you do with the women involved is a much thornier problem, I do see that. 'Helping them get out' is much easier said than done, and I can well imagine 'preferring' selling sex to a low paid job. Though I think on balance the low paid job would be better for a person's long term survival, mental health, social success and so on.

If you're going to adopt a model where the sellers of sex are not criminalised then it's an all or nothing thing. You can't say it's decriminalised but then quietly continue arresting women for working together, or for 'selling sex while being an immigrant' or whatever.

They are still exceptionally vulnerable though. The young woman on the plane who had been told by a "friend" that they could earn good money working as prostitutes are just as (if not more) vulnerable to being trapped in a coercive situation than young women who had been told they could earn money as cleaners and then get trapped working as prostitutes. The friend could be completely above board, but they could also be someone who has been paid to recruit more women et.

Not to say that all women in those situations are being coerced, but the people buying sex have no way of telling, and all the evidence shows they really don't care. I don't see how that doesn't make them as bad as rapists.

The problem is, sex work is rife in deprivation because it provides an easier way out of poverty for many women. In Thailand for example, there is less stigma around sex work because earning money to support your family is seen as a moral obligation, less so how you get it.

I'm not sure how sex work, in countries where women and girls have few if any rights, makes them any more vulnerable. In many countries rape in marriage is legal, domestic abuse is the norm and women have little legal protection due to corruption and lack of law enforcement. For many women there are very few options.

The solution is to respect women and girls, protect their rights, raise them out of poverty and provide better opportunities.

Sonia Sodha doesn't like debating I see, she blocks anyone on twitter who doesn't agree with the Nordic Model. For example anyone who posts this

https://decrimnow.org.uk/open-letter-on-the-nordic-model/

All countries that have the Nordic Model criminalise sexworkers for working together. In Sweden landlords aren't allowed to rent property to sexworkers either and have to evict their tenant if they find out they are a sexworker. Sexworkers are also less likely to carry condoms in Nordic Model countries because they can be used as evidence. In Sweden selling sex is seen as "self harm" and sexworkers are visited by social workers who determine if they are fit to look after their kids.

It's inaccurate to say sexworkers are "decriminalised" under the Nordic Model. They're not.

who had been told they could earn money as cleaners and then get trapped working as prostitutes.

Forgive me here but I think if that happpened to me I don't think I would consider it work.

#1 - If I am "trapped" then I assume that I cannot come and go as I please, or leave to home at the end of a busy day.

#2 - If I am trapped I am pretty sure I am not going to get paid because money would provide means for walking away.

3 - If I went to work, be it as a cleaner or any other type of work, but on arrival was told to have with some man (not of my choosing) as the job had changed - I would refuse. Can they?

If they cannot that is most definately not work. It is rape.

All day. Every day.

@cupcaske123 This is simply untrue - In Thailand for example, there is less stigma around sex work because earning money to support your family is seen as a moral obligation, less so how you get it.

Thai women who are rescued from prostitution cannot go home. They bring terrible shame to the families who sold them into sex slavery in the first place. Very often, they are sacrificed for the financial survival fot he family - they are shunned if they manage to come back.

There seems to be a notion that sex and prostitution s viewed in a more liberal way in the East.

It is incorrect.

WOW - I have no idea what happened with the font size up there - if I wanted to do that I would not be able!

😁

Do you honestly think she hasn't read other opinions? Blocking apologist men who give her the absolute creeps should be OK. I suppose you don't like being told no, do you?

I wasn't talking about women sold into prostitution, I was talking about women who choose to go into it to make money to support their families.

Of course! But even a woman who knew she would be working as a prostitute is at risk of also being coerced to do things she doesn't want (and therefore raped) or not being alowed to leave at the end of the planned period (and therefore raped) or having someone else keep the money as payment for debt but having no choice but to keep working (and therefore taped).

You didn't read the letter and list of signatures did you?

Many human rights orgs, health orgs, HIV/STD orgs, sexworker orgs (made up of actual women with experience of selling sex), anti-trafficking orgs are all against the Nordic Model and instead favour decriminalisation.

This isn't about "apologist men" as you say, it's about actual sexworkers and orgs with knowledge of human rights, trafficking and how to best prevent HIV etc. But I guess Sonia Sodha knows better.

@yesmen, no, what you are describing is trafficking not sexwork.

Blocking apologist men who give her the absolute creeps

She has also blocked sexworkers on twitter btw who have opposing views.

@Christinapple - the majority of women who "work" in the sex trade are trafficked. Fact.

Take your data from places like Germany and Thailand.

Legalization does nothing to stop the trafficking of women. It actually increases it.

The women who step in for their own reasons are a drop in the ocean minority.

I'd love to see that data. Do you have a link please?

In Britain the biggest ever anti-trafficking operation involving all police forces raiding brothels the entire length of Britain (by surprise) to find traffickers and trafficked victims resulted in virtually nothing.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails

The orgs I mentioned above advocate for decriminalisation (the model used by NZ, parts of Aus and Belgium) not legalisation.

"The UK's biggest ever investigation of sex trafficking failed to find a single person who had forced anybody into prostitution in spite of hundreds of raids on sex workers in a six-month campaign by government departments, specialist agencies and every police force in the country.

The failure has been disclosed by a Guardian investigation which also suggests that the scale of and nature of sex trafficking into the UK has been exaggerated by politicians and media.

Current and former ministers have claimed that thousands of women have been imported into the UK and forced to work as sex slaves, but most of these statements were either based on distortions of quoted sources or fabrications without any source at all."