Thoughts needed please - feminism, appearance and guilt

[Seaside1234]

I’m fed up with being overweight and feeling frumpy, but I’m struggling to reconcile this with guilt. My mother brought me up to essentially believe that I shouldn’t care about how I look, that it’s shallow and incompatible with truly held feminist views. She was a 70s feminist, but also had other issues that might have affected her opinion about appearance (almost certainly an unhappy marriage, and almost certainly undiagnosed autism - I was diagnosed at 42). In particular, I feel very guilty for wanting to lose weight. I’ve had binge eating issues all my life, and now have borderline high blood pressure as well as feeling uncomfortable and limited in how my body works. I have lost weight in the past, and felt much better and happier for it, but also felt guilty. I’m now 48, and at least 3 stone overweight. I feel frumpy and unstylish, but also happy to stay in my safe zone. Additional background- marriage is a bit of shambles, and I am essentially responsible for holding us up financially and practically (husband has a worsening drink problem).

Thoughts pls. How does caring about your appearance, and weight loss in particular, intersect with feminism in your opinions? I know it’s what I believe that matters, and that’s not related to how I look, but this underlying belief is very hard to shift and is limiting my ability to make decisions that would be best for me. Thanks.

I don't know if this is useful but you are not alone in wrestling with this. I often struggle with this much more than any of the typical pressures women face.

With the weight thing, I am trying to think of it as looking after myself so I can look after my family.

I guess the question is really is it anti feminist to even have the desire to look nice?

Well it's not just about your appearance is it? It's about your health, your blood pressure and not feeling limited. Just focus on feeling healthy and if the results makes you think you look better too, that's a side effect.

to me it's about feeling physically well.
it has little to do with my womanhood but everything to do with my physical body movement and activity, my desire to live a long and healthy life and to enjoy my life to the fullest.
i do enjoy having clothing that fits my body well draping nicely not tugging and pulling, i do enjoy being outside without sweat forming under my breasts and developing skin sores in folds of skin. i do enjoy not having any diagnosed illnesses and a decreased risk of cancer or other long term illnesses.
i enjoy NOT standing out for all the wrong reasons, i want to fit in with the norm not stand out as an outlier for all the wrong reasons.

Feminism is about having choices. You can choose to he any version of yourself that you want to be.

Caring for yourself, and wanting to improve your health is not anti-feminist.
Wanting to be comfortable and happy in your appearance is not anti-feminist. You are allowed to like yourself and how you look, and you are allowed to feel good about your appearance. Is it the most important thing? By no means, and as women we shouldn't be defined by how we look or have our worth attached to it. You're more than that, and please don't feel guilty for thinking you'd like to lose weight or to change how you dress.

It sounds like you're also having a very difficult time with home life. I think, and I hope this is not patronising, but it sounds like you are due some self care and some self love.

Wanting to look nice is a human thing not a woman thing (not being fussed about looking nice is fine too).

I think where it potentially becomes feminist is if you compare the labour and comfort involved in "looking nice" between the sexes.

Does looking nice mean being clean, hygenic, healthy, comfortable in your clothes and own skin? How can there be anything unfeminist about that?

@ditalini yep, no problems with basic hygiene, but anything about wanting to actively look good, the guilt kicks in

By 48, you'd hope to not give so much mind to what your mum thought and to give less of a shit whether your needs and wants fit with any outside measure of feminism, societal pressures, or anything else. I know that's easier said that done - I'm the same age and also 3 stone over my 'ideal' weight but I'm okay at this weight. Would like to lose a stone or so for health (knees etc) but I think I look fine and mostly accept myself for how look and who I am.

It seems like there's two issues that make your situation different. Your mother's voice in your head, which you know is unhealthy but must be hard to shake. I wonder if it's the kind of thing that CBT might help with. Worth looking into. Or hypnotherapy maybe. Just to deal with the triggers that send you down that line of thought. But the bigger issue seems to be the pressure your under supporting the DH with the drinking problem. When you have that on your plate it's very hard to prioritise yourself and put any effort into self care. I bet if you let him go you'd get a whole new lease of life and time and space to get yourself healthy and happier.

Have you talked to Al Anon or such places who support those in your situation? If you're trying to keep things going in hopes of fixing him but breaking yourself in the process then you do need help to find your own agency in this. Perhaps it's easier to blame your mum and childhood than the current marriage that is harder to deal with, I don't know. It sounds very hard all round. But I sense you'd get further by grappling with the tangible things you can change in your life than with the abstract ideas of feminism from your past.

I have to say having a teenage boy made me realise that men do also want to look nice. There is an effort there. Their hair cuts tend to be very frequent. If they shave it's daily or tgey go to the barbers to tidy their beard... They no longer want hairy backs. They work out a lot. They pick clothes to show off muscles.

There are of course different standards and rules. Not much make up, comfier shoes (but not so much these days) plus able to repeat outfits. But it's not as labour free as I thought.

Maybe start by allowing yourself a man level of preening?

I think it is important to exercise and be a healthy weight for mental and physical health reasons. I don't really see it as anything to do with feminism/the patriarchy. I've just read this horrifying article about amputation related to diabetes. Not a nice read but very clear about the effects of obesity on diabetes rates and the subsequent cost to the NHS and impact on people's lives.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/aug/07/it-looked-like-corned-beef-life-inside-a-welsh-amputation-ward-as-diabetes-gets-worse

You seem to give your mother's opinions a lot of power. You can question what she thought - your own life experience seems to show that you feel happier and healthier at a lower weight so it seems your mother was incorrect in thinking that weight shouldn't matter.

Unfortunately, my brain has got wise to that one. I try to think 'this is for my health' but my brain says 'yeah, whatever - accept you can't and shouldn't want to look any better'.

Totally agree, but my brain argues all those are selfish things to want and I shouldn't be so self-centred. My conscious thoughts are consistently undermined by my ingrained beliefs!

Yes, that's a whole other problem, but probably related - I feel horrendously guilty at the prospect of ruining everyone else's lives by ending my marriage, and that I don't have the right to end it. I had a whole other thread on that though, so won't rehash. You're probably right that there's a wider issue, but this is a specific problem that's limiting my ability to take action right now.

Basically, I have a voice on loop in my head saying 'who do you think you are to want x/y/etc?'

@Frowningprovidence I wish my teenage boy took this level of interest in his appearance/hygiene! Although he's getting better

Thank you - do you know, I think that's the first time it's occurred to me she might have been wrong, that her opinions were just that, opinions. She had some bitterness about how life had panned out for her, I think, and I'm sure blatant sexism played a part in that - hers was not a world where you could be very feminine and taken seriously. Thankfully I don't live in that world

I think most women and feminists struggle with this. I was anorexic in my 20s and felt v guilty for being so appearance focused. I am 35 now and got botox the other day which I now feel like I'm going to feminist prison for. But the patriarchy wore me down, I know it's not empowering. I try to have empathy for myself that I'm a victim of the patriarchal brainwashing which makes most women hate their bodies.

It sounds like there's something more going on for you though. Something like not feeling good enough in your mum's eyes and wanting to please her.

Susie Orbach wrote about body weight and self protection in Fat is a Feminist Issue. Maybe check that out?

@Ws2210 that book made a huge impact on me many years ago, and it hadn't occurred to me to go back and read it from my current perspective. Will do, thank you for the suggestion.

this is a specific problem that's limiting my ability to take action right now. Basically, I have a voice on loop in my head saying 'who do you think you are to want x/y/etc?'

Well that's one voice in your head but there are others and this one's not even yours. There's ways of addressing such things - responding to that voice as though it's another person and so on. You'd have to look into it, maybe get help.

You sound switched on and know what the issues are so I think it's about finding the time and energy to deal with it. But honestly, I think it's hard to separate this out as one specific issue that can be dealt with aside from the bigger picture and blaming that for your inability to take action.

Your guilt around 'ruining other people's lives' by ending a marriage shows it's not just this mother business where the thinking is warped - you haven't and won't be ruining anything. It's your DH who has the drinking problem and you're the one who's actively not been ruining anything. I do think that counselling would give you a chance to understand and address the thought patterns across the board. Your mum might have been wrong in how she thought of things and so might you be. We all come up with ways of thinking to protect ourselves and help us to cope, and some of those thought patterns can become a problem that hurt us while trying to protect us. With all this guilt and critical voices to handle, it's not wonder you're not taking action. You need to unpick them and get free.

I struggle with this too. It was only when I actually lost the weight that the guilt lifted, because I could see how much better my body functioned when I was eating well, hydrating, strength training. Yes, I wanted to look a certain way which society has idealised as 'good', but I'm trying to reframe that as a perk, a by-product, of giving my body what it needs to function well. Yes, there is a little element of me believing what I want to believe - I no longer cry in front of the mirror about how I look on a regular basis. But that is also a positive for my physical health, as stress is bad for you. We've all got to do what we need to, to survive under capitalism and patriarchy, and you feeling rubbish about yourself isn't serving you very well. I would argue that putting your wants and needs first, rather than being subservient to others needs, wants and ideas, is one of the founding notions of feminism.
It's very hard though. You mention not wanting to be selfish in your replies and I suppose that's one to unpack, I can see how your upbringing led to that but maybe it's worth working through that a little - will it affect anyone else, you looking after yourself? No. But that's easier said than done. Maybe write it out, using the 'why'. 'I shouldn't do this' 'why' 'because etc' 'Why does that matter' etc etc. Try and treat yourself as you would a friend.

The mindset that when you do something it's to look nice for guys or because someone told you to is the non feminist part.

Doing something for yourself, to take care of yourself to ensure you are happy, healthy and fit. I don't see a a problem with that.

I didn't start exercising to " look good" ( I'm 43 I've had 2 kids how good can I look truthfully ... I did it because after years of my life being about others, playing the housewife with a part time job and looking after 2 kids and a partner who took me for granted, I decided I'd do something for me. Ditched the partner, kids were old enough to be left home alone fir a couple if hours if I went to the gym. And I finally got to meet new people and try new things and discover things outside of domesticity.

If you arent happy, change it. Partners survived before you , they will survive after you. And kids, we'll maybe it's not a bad thing they see that taking care of yourself is as important as taking care of them. It's vital they learn that being in a relationship and having a family isn't something that women should lose their entire identity to. Men don't. Men carry on half the time as if they are single. They don't worry about this stuff as much as we do and we end up carrying double le the load.

The patriarchal influence is that we need a reason other than what we want and what we need, to do anything that's not about everyone else. And looking and feeling good should be fir you. Not anyone else.

Thank you all - I'm glad I'm not the only one struggles with this. I have it very ingrained that someone who was really a feminist would not do something as shallow and superficial as caring about her appearance beyond basic hygiene, clean clothes, etc. I judge others this way as well, tbh - can't understand why some intelligent, sensible women I know are interested in makeup, for example.

I also feel guilty at the idea of choosing a job that is creative or in any way 'superficial'. Husband's job is entirely creative, and I'm kind of fascinated that he has the audacity to do something he wants to do, rather than the most responsible job possible and try and be grateful for it. I think I've been brought up to think that everyone should put their own needs and desires very much second to solving the problems of the world.

Your mother has done you a disservice - all human beings should care about and take pride in their appearance.

Honestly? who on earth is strong enough to live their entire life without ever feeling the weight of societal expectation??
Do i wear makeup because i want to, or because i would feel weird if i didnt? I have no idea! I only shave my legs because i feel gross if i dont, id happily never do it again if it wasnt something that others notice! i dont think it makes me less of a feminist to acknowledge this and do it anyway... maybe others on here would say its weakness, i couldnt give less of a shit. what does it really matter in the grand scheme of things?

Do what you need to do to feel happy, and then give yourself some space to figure it out but dont beat yourself up about it. Lose the weight if you want to, "wanting to" is the only reason you need. You do you.

be kinder to yourself, perfection is impossible

I think this is something that many feminists go through & think about. I certainly did - and I'm a 1970s feminist with long hair & I wear dresses and sometimes even high heels (as long as I can run for the bus in them).

Think about it this way: feminism is about what you DO, not what you look like.

And as for your weight: losing weight is about your health. High BP and borderline diabetes? Lose that weight! It's important so that you are not medically dependent and disabled in later middle & old age.

It's nothing to do with appearance. It's about taking responsibility for your health & longevity.

Develop a much healthier way of eating, and also start to do a proper exercise programme, which includes some resistance or strength training. It's really important for women in middle age to maintain muscle mass, and bone strength.

It's a feminist proposition: women tend to live longer and often in poverty & ill-health. Don't be one of those women. Take control of your life.

Do you want to look nicer so that men will admire you, or because you think you will like it? The first, changing or tailoring your appearance to appeal to men, is not at all feminist, but the second is entirely feminist. Women are entitled to bodily autonomy, and that includes looking and feeling as good as they damn well please.