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Feminism: chat

Abusive, "Progressive" men

25 replies

doingitalone635 · 05/08/2024 08:24

I am just coming out of an abusive relationship with a so called "progressive" man. After reading some of Lundy Bancroft's work, I am starting to realise how naive I have been about the capability of these men (who often wax lyrical about the evils of oppression), for abuse. In fact, it's a particularly manipulative way of absolving themselves of responsibility for their actions and winning allies, as they apparently "aren't the type", or often claim to be (or, indeed are) victims of oppression themselves.

I know this will come as no shock to others, but I am just feeling so angry about society's condoning of such men's abuse because they may be victims of oppression themselves, or hold the "right views," (in public at least). My ex-partner and his family is from a community that has experienced direct, systematic oppression, largely, but not completely confined to the past, and, rightly so, is angered by this and views himself as a social justice warrior and fighter of oppression as a result of his experiences. Many of his male friends purport to have the same views and motivations, yet, see no issue with having misogenistic views of women that are enabled and rationalised as "progressive." Views that condone their use of sex workers, for example, as "some women find it empowering." Said to me (a woman) in a rather condescending way, by one of his male friends. I am not claiming to speak for all women here, but, as a woman, it doesn't sit right being told by a man how women feel about selling their bodies to men. The fact that I have worked directly with many sex workers in the past, and, am in fact a woman, seems to have had no bearing on his arrogant and self-rituous attitude that he knows best and is of the "correct and progressive" mindset. Such "progressive" views, in my observation, seem to do little for women while furthering the selfish interests of men.

I know I am not saying anything new here, I'm just trying to heal from an abusive relationship and am feeling angry in general about how this dynamic played out in my personal life and is in many ways excused by society, enableng my ex to justify his behaviour towards me and cast himself as the constant victim who I should feel sorry for. I also dated a social worker who treated me horribly sexually, but was fiercely vocal about his views against oppression and the mistreatment of women, and I think he really believed what he was saying - in theory at least. The cognitive dissonance of believing one thing so strongly, but at the same time displaying the opposite values, and the twisted justifications for this just added to my sense of confusion and I feel is right out of the abuser's textbook.

OP posts:
cupcaske123 · 05/08/2024 11:54

This is really common and I'm sorry you've experienced it. Many perpetrators have a mask when out in public, some are pillars of the community.

I've always been left leaning politically and haven't really noticed any difference in so called progressive men and everyday sexists.

He's gaslighting you. Men using sex workers and saying it's female empowerment are gaslighting you. Although I've heard women come out with the same kinds of arguments; they've been gaslit.

Being mansplained female empowerment by a misogynist is the worst.

idontwannabeanythingotherthanwhativebeentrynabe · 05/08/2024 16:09

Yep, progressive sexists and straight up misogynists are sadly a thing.

I’ve noticed how most of the time women’s ’empowerment’ is just nudity, hook-up culture, porn / OF and being kinky (woman being submissive of course).

I got into feminism about five years ago and was suprised that this was seen as feminism and why men when so angry about it - since it pretty much caters to them.
And I’d say it caters to worse kind of men.

TeiTetua · 05/08/2024 19:16

A large part of the energy in the 1970s women's movement came from exactly this--women who'd been involved in political movements, where the men showed zero interest in any change in women's status.

XChrome · 05/08/2024 20:55

The "progressive" mask is one abusers often employ to lure women in.
It's hard, if not impossible, to heal from this if you are around "progressive" friends who are like that.
You may want to break away from that crowd for the sake of your peace of mind.
I've been there. It's not easy, but you will heal with time and no contact. Get all the creepy men out of your life, not just your ex, as well as their female enablers. People who justify or ignore his mistreatment of you are not your friends. They are friends to no woman.

I had to break away from family members who supported my ex. It was the only way to gain the peace I needed. Now I have nobody in my life who does not have my back. It means there are fewer people in my life, but the ones I have are the real deal.

BornLippy88 · 05/08/2024 21:14

I agree and this isn't talked about enough. So many guys think they are absolved of any wrongdoing just by making a few comments about the workingman's struggle or whatever

doingitalone635 · 05/08/2024 23:32

@cupcaske123 When I finally left my ex he sent me messages from others stating what an outstanding guy he is for his work in the community!

@idontwannabeanythingotherthanwhativebeentrynabe Yes, I'm new to feminist theory but is it third wave "feminism" that encompasses all of this "female empowerment" translating as essentially serving men's sexual desires and fantasies? It feels as though female sexual liberation has been resold to us somewhere along the way as something that, I agree, pretty much caters to the worst types of exploitative men.

@TeiTetua That's really interesting! It looks like history is repeating itself; hopefully the backlash will gain as much traction.

@XChrome Thanks for your post and I'm sorry you've had to go through all that! It must have felt like such a betrayal having family members support your abusive ex, though I hear that it's quite common too with these kinds of manipulators. I'm lucky that I have some good friends who have my back and I'm glad you've got that too now.

@BornLippy88 Lundy Bancroft mentions in his book how some abusers from oppressed communities use their own personal experiences of oppression to accuse their victims of disloyalty to "the cause", if they dare challenge them in any way. It's just another excuse for abuse in my view - akin to "I hurt you because I am under so much pressure - at work, due to financial constraints, mental health problems etc." Plenty of oppressed people don't abuse their partners. My ex was fond of reverting to a victim status whenever I questioned his behaviour and liked to try and put me in the role of oppressor for daring to challenge him.

OP posts:
ApocalipstickNow · 06/08/2024 10:15

Women’s empowerment, seems to me, to be more about what heterosexual men want than actually beneficial to women.

I suppose it depends on what you consider “empowering”. I would say economic independence and physical strength are two things I would call empowering. But many straight men seem to be more interested in telling women how empowering it is to take off their clothes, sell sex etc.

this makes me wonder what “power” we are talking about. The power to move around the world safely, listened to, able to support oneself and your family? I think this is a power most men have. Women less so. The power to make a man aroused? This is an ancient, misogynistic view of women, who are “bewitching” “beguiling” able to possess men with their beauty. It’s not massively helpful to women and doesn’t come from an open hearted place of equality.

If stripping, burlesque, sex work etc are so empowering would they be realistic suggestions for groups of men who feel disempowered? Why aren’t men been told to pop on a pair of booty shorts and shake it like a Polaroid picture? 🤔

And how long does this empowerment last for? Stripping in your twenties, will you still feel empowered when you’re in your 50s, 70s, 90s? What’s the answer if you’re not? Do these young men shouting “empowerment!” agree an 80 year old woman who feels very vulnerable can improve her life by taking up lap dancing? Would they want to engage with that? Does the point of sexual empowerment end when men no longer find you attractive? 🤔

So while I think it’s great that women feel confident naked, or are in control of their own sexuality, I don’t see how male gaze and male demands (prostitution is ABSOLUTELY not about a woman being in charge of her sexuality, but submitting to men’s wants) I find it hard to buy the idea that what is considered “empowerment” is anything but sexism undressed.

cupcaske123 · 06/08/2024 12:14

My ex was fond of reverting to a victim status whenever I questioned his behaviour and liked to try and put me in the role of oppressor for daring to challenge him.

That's called DARVO - Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim, Offender. It's as though abusers all read the same manual.

Women’s empowerment, seems to me, to be more about what heterosexual men want than actually beneficial to women.

Women's sexual empowerment is a tricky one. Due to aeons of shaming due in part to Christianity, women have had little control over their sexuality. You were either a virgin or a whore, blamed for rape and sexual harassment, for bringing misogyny on yourself.

Part of women's empowerment was reclaiming their bodies and their sexuality as their own. However that seems to have become distorted with sexual exploitation seen as empowering.

Also in relationships, women are meant to work, look after the children, run the home and serve men. Worked out well for the patriarchy.

TerracottaWorrier · 13/08/2024 23:53

The guy I recently broke up with had a copy of Men Who Hate Women prominently on his coffee table the first time I went home with him. I was so happy and impressed to have found a hot feminist guy.

He was a horrible, gaslighting person and it took absolutely months to accept it was not my trauma fucking up our relationship. He knew all the words to every progressive idea and yet he also did terrible things like hide my passport while we were overseas until I cancelled it before revealing it had "accidentally" been in his bag all along.

I think, and I say this as someone currently having very in depth therapy, that we have to be really very circumspect going into relationships with men. If they don't like this then they can take it up with all the men who have caused this to be the case, not me.

I think now that he probably ordered the book and put it on his coffee table in advance of getting radical feminist me into bed. 🤦‍♀️

doingitalone635 · 14/08/2024 08:37

@ApocalipstickNow I agree with you! I have definitely noticed this rebranding of female sexual empowerment as presenting yourself and engaging in activities that is sexually appealing to men and feeds into male desires. It's been resold to us as women "reclaiming control of their sexuality," particularly when talking about sex work - but it's like a bird building its own nest in a cage.

As I've matured I've become more concerned with financial independance and stability and find this empowering, as you've also mentioned. Maybe it's my bad experiences with men, and having children, but I couldn't care less how I look to men anymore and feel quite angry about the beauty rituals and performances I bought into in order to be desirable to men. Alot of that is also the fucked up messaging I know I received from my own mother, so is probably personal to me. But I do feel so much freer now.

I know there are decent men out there and that men are also victims of the patriarchy. I have two sons whom I love dearly and worry alot about the kind of messaging that they will be exposed to growing up, especially from their father and their peers, porn... It seems in many ways like things are getting worse and going backwards instead of forwards.

OP posts:
doingitalone635 · 14/08/2024 08:44

@TerracottaWorrier I'm sorry you had to go through that, he sounds awful! Sounds like he was actively seeking a radical feminist, perhaps to stroke his own ego for bagging someone with strong values that he can then try and undermine. What a prick! I agree we have to be so careful! The way I am feeling now I don't know if I ever want another man in my life, except for my sons. I don't want anyone to interfere in the new life that I am building for myself, my new sense of personal achievement, stability and independance. I don't trust myself to recognise the red flags and, even when you're actively seeking them out, or are as well versed in them as you seem, some men apparently are masters at hiding them!

OP posts:
NCmybloodyfather · 14/08/2024 17:39

Covert narcissists. Instead of being flashy in their appearance and being all about status symbols like your more well-known narcs, they will wear their progressiveness and alleged allyship as a badge of honour. It disarms us and makes us think we're with a guy that 'gets it'.
My ex was like this. The most progressive person and biggest feminist ally to the outside world.
But actually a misogynist, manipulator and bully of women at work.
Makes me spew when I see strangers telling him what a great guy he is for saying the 'right thing'.
He cares more about impressing strangers online than doing right be people actually in his life.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 14/08/2024 17:41

There's another one 'I'm so for equality, I'll hit you, because if I didn't because you're a woman, that would be sexist'.

Seriously. I think I left him more for that than the actual slap.

elgreco · 14/08/2024 17:52

John Lennon the pacifist is perfect example.

TerracottaWorrier · 14/08/2024 21:12

NCmybloodyfather · 14/08/2024 17:39

Covert narcissists. Instead of being flashy in their appearance and being all about status symbols like your more well-known narcs, they will wear their progressiveness and alleged allyship as a badge of honour. It disarms us and makes us think we're with a guy that 'gets it'.
My ex was like this. The most progressive person and biggest feminist ally to the outside world.
But actually a misogynist, manipulator and bully of women at work.
Makes me spew when I see strangers telling him what a great guy he is for saying the 'right thing'.
He cares more about impressing strangers online than doing right be people actually in his life.

Yeah. Just like mine. I couldn't understand his thought processes for the longest time. He kept telling me I'd done very hurtful things and then he'd pull away for a while. I thought he was just the most amazing man when I first met him. I'd never had someone write me special cards and give me thoughtful gifts before.

When he told me I was too fucked up to have a relationship with in my current form, I took it all so seriously. I got a proper psychoanalyst and asked him to really be straight with me about what was wrong with my character. Two sessions in and my therapist is pointing out that not only is my ex a narcissist but so is my dad. 🤦‍♀️

I keep arranging dates on bumble but I think I'm still too shaky about the whole thing.

NCmybloodyfather · 14/08/2024 23:32

@TerracottaWorrier Omg! Exactly the same here!! My dad and ex, both narcs.
We've sought out what's familiar.
Note to self, if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.
I'm actually going to stay single until I've done more work on this, because I don't trust myself not to make another shit choice.
Solidarity

Edingril · 14/08/2024 23:36

When start dating they need to open their eyes and ears and if the person is not suitable stop dating them

In is people's control what behaviour they will accept and people need to take take responsibility for that

KnitFastDieWarm · 14/08/2024 23:39

Give me an honest to goodness openly sexist bloke who calls me ‘love’ any day of the week over a faux progressive ‘male feminist’ who tries to gaslight me into thinking he understands female experience better than i do. At least I know where i stand with the first.

I mean, ideally, give me a bloke who is just a decent respectful human being towards women 🙄but failing that, heaven preserve us from the ‘i’m a left wing man so i couldn’t POSSIBLY be sexist’ types.

shuggles · 15/08/2024 00:09

I've always thought that "progressive" men come across as nasty and sexist. It seems to be the same men who have soft and effeminate voices too.

doingitalone635 · 15/08/2024 03:20

@NeverDropYourMooncup My ex was like this! He never hit me but would use the sexism excuse just to be a nasty prick essentially. He'd see me struggle with our heavy shopping bags and refuse to help as it's "sexist to help women with their bags." Or, when travelling on a busy train he'd swan off and find himself the last seat while leaving me standing with all the luggage as "women can take care of themselves." Seriously, I wouldn't treat anyone like that, male or female. I'm sorry your ex hit you, there's no excuse whatsoever and it's amazing how these men justify their abuse to themselves really. Pathetic!

OP posts:
Happyinarcon · 15/08/2024 05:02

@ApocalipstickNow
If stripping, burlesque, sex work etc are so empowering would they be realistic suggestions for groups of men who feel disempowered? Why aren’t men been told to pop on a pair of booty shorts and shake it like a Polaroid picture? 🤔

To be fair, I visit a lot of male dominated chat forums and they are as confused about this as we are. They don’t think stripping or prostitution are empowering for women, but they think these views accurately represent so called crazy left wing feminists.

Omlettes · 19/08/2024 02:17

TeiTetua · 05/08/2024 19:16

A large part of the energy in the 1970s women's movement came from exactly this--women who'd been involved in political movements, where the men showed zero interest in any change in women's status.

One also might argue women were sold a lie that the Pill was empowering

CoalTit · 19/08/2024 03:07

One also might argue women were sold a lie that the Pill was empowering
That's what Jordan Peterson says. "[The contraceptive pill] turned women into creatures who didn't know who they were". Peterson is a whingeing, self obsessed bore incapable of taking into account or caring about the widespread abuse of unmarried pregnant women and their babies before the contraceptive pill, but it's true that the likes of Hugh Heffner loved the idea of using women as sex toys with no consequences for themselves, thanks to contraceptives and abortion.

Omlettes · 19/08/2024 05:01

CoalTit · 19/08/2024 03:07

One also might argue women were sold a lie that the Pill was empowering
That's what Jordan Peterson says. "[The contraceptive pill] turned women into creatures who didn't know who they were". Peterson is a whingeing, self obsessed bore incapable of taking into account or caring about the widespread abuse of unmarried pregnant women and their babies before the contraceptive pill, but it's true that the likes of Hugh Heffner loved the idea of using women as sex toys with no consequences for themselves, thanks to contraceptives and abortion.

Yes he is a histronic popinjay and the wording of that statement is all part of his creepy paternalistic schtick, which I always find amusing from someone clearly so neurotic.

AstridFahan · 24/08/2024 22:04

Unfortunately, I have seen both men and women who are like this. They will say all the right words about being against abuse. Then when they come across someone abusing a victim in real life, they fall flat on their faces, giving the abuser everything they want, and someone winds up getting hurt.

I have learned to hang around people who are grounded, where their ethics are shown by their actions.

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