Man chatting on the train

[cloudchaos]

I was sat on the train last night and there was an older man (70s) sitting next to a younger (40s) woman and her daughter (approx 13). He proceeded to talk at her for the entire journey, loudly so everyone could hear. Telling her all about the history of her own country, making slightly racist jokes (or at least jokes at the expense of her country) talking about his good friend who was from the same country and mistresses, he mentioned the many houses and cars that he owned.... etc There was nothing overly sexual about the conversation but it came across as a man imparting his wisdom on this woman who hadn't asked for it, and showing off. Once the woman had stopped responding, he turned to the daughter and tried to continue the showing off there, asking her what her favourite subject was at school and when she said it was history, he began quizzing her with questions it was clear a 13 year old would not be able to answer, just so he could provide the answer. This went on for almost a full hour of the train journey where we all had to listen to it. I felt sad for the daughter who was having to listen to this, as she was ultimately being put down by this 70+ man who then patronisingly would tell her she would go to university one day because she was clever, after failing to answer a single question he asked her. I felt annoyed the mother wasn't stopping the quizzing of her daughter, but also understood the potential uncomfortable-ness of sitting on a train for several hours if she hadn't maintained the pretence of being interested in what this man had to say.

My son was with me on the train and he's 8 and he asked me, why the man was "so loud" and why he kept "bothering that woman"? And I couldn't come up with an answer. I was hoping those of you might be able to help me with why I found this whole exchange uncomfortable.

He was, some might argue, just making small talk, but it felt much more egoic than that... he wanted this woman to be impressed and she was meant to be impressed and respond in such a way, and when the older woman was no longer responding he went for the younger girl, and she proceeded to give the man a similar response, like it was trained in to us... I suppose it makes me feel like women pandering to men, and having to "put up" with their egos for their pleasure at the expense of their own, but I also kept thinking, well he is just chatting... so I was confused as to why I felt so overly uncomfortable with the whole thing, and then I wasn't sure what I should explain to my son... and then I tried to explain to my DH too who didn't understand what was wrong with it either, so then I thought perhaps it was me that was in the wrong and perhaps this is just acceptables smalltalk?

Can anyone more articulate than me help me with why this felt bad and how I should explain the encounter to my 8 year old, who obviously also felt something wasn't quite right too?

He assumed that HER time was available to pander to HIS patronizing conversation and never considered that neither wanted to listen to him.

I call this verbal manspreading.

He wasn't interested in a two-way conversation, she was merely a receptacle for his "wisdom". His self importance and arrogance didn't allow him to think he wasn't welcome and her body language/lack of response didn't bother him at all

thank you, yes it felt non-consensual in a way... I am just trying to work out how to explain / educate my son in an age appropriate way... but perhaps I will position it that when we talk to people of either sex, we should be ensuring the conversation is mutual, wanted, and a two way conversation, and we should be checking on body language to inform that?

Yes - while it's very possible the bloke wouldn't have inflicted himself on another man, maybe he would have done.

My 8yo is autistic, so we have a lot of quite granular conversations about navigating interactions that are mutually respectful and everyone enjoys.

In this situation we'd probably talk about the man not doing a good job of being interested in the woman and her daughter wanting / enjoying the interaction, and all the cues that they were displaying which suggested they might not be.

We'd probably talk about power in a roundabout way, for example by thinking about the things that make it difficult to get out of situations like this (if the other person is older than us / in charge / a man when we're female etc etc). She likes little scripts so we'd probably invent a few little scripts that the woman / daughter could have used, or we might use in a similar situation.

I love that idea @skoobydoo thank you. I will see if we can come up with some scripts!!

I also really like this and it's actually a useful tool for many. Especially our girls who often despite having an Old Dinosaur Feminist Mum like me who encourages my teen DD to absolutely stand up for herself, have been conditioned by external factors that "being kind" is paramount even if at the expense is f your own comfort and boundaries.

Also - and only an option if there are stops ahead of yours - maybe mum could message daughter (as she's bound to be glued to her phone ) to get up and move at the next stop under guise of getting off. I know, I know, you shouldn't have to but it's an option for when we're uncomfortable saying something

Some people are just really really lonely. I have an old uncle who can talk exactly like you describe. After losing his wife the days are long and people who want to listen are scarce. And he has lost some of his social antennas about what is a acceptabel conversation. If the women really felt intimidated she could have said so.

If the women really felt intimidated she could have said so.

And how do think that conversation would have gone?

Men have a status and knowledge economy, they base self worth and self promotion on knowing and imparting stuff and implicitly and explicitly dominating. So yes, ego, probably also lonely and in need of human connection. We're all different and all limited and imperfect.

A friend and I were at a tourist place a year or so ago. Two women on the elderly side of middle age. We were looking at a particular exhibit when a man came up and tried to give us the benefit of his superior knowledge.

Post menopause I have little time for that sort of nonsense so asked him, loud and clear, why he assumed we knew less than him. He blustered a bit but we just walked away.

Not so easy on a train, that poor woman and her daughter.

If the women really felt intimidated she could have said so.

WTF?

If she felt intimidated she’s very unlikely to say something. The impact of intimidating someone is that it makes it less likely that they will do what they want instead of what you want.

Exactly, and cock swinging

Men do this because women often do not feel they can tell them to stfu.

He would be unlikely to do this to a group of men because he would feel unsafe to do so. So therefore on some level he must realise it's intimidating.

@cloudchaos
I agree with ubove poster's also think 🤔 it can come from weirdly enough insecurities about themselves too,

The problem is, they always speak to women and/or children. They never strike up a conversation with a man. Why is that?

Because he feels safe with them? Because they remind him of the family he once had? Because all other people are only staring at their phones?
I live near a large retirement home and when I walk by with my kids, people who live there often start a conversation with me about my children. Women and men just the same. They like children, they are lonely, they have no-one to talk too. Seeing kids brings back memories of days gone by.

No. If someone feels intimidated they are LESS likely to say so.

I think that was quite intuitive of your son. I had a male relative like this, pretty much all of my interactions with him were like those with the women on the train.

I think I'd talk about how the conversation was all one way. It wasn't two (or three) people going back and forth. It was one person imposing their conversation on other people. Quite apart from any gendered dynamics he's of an age where it's appropriate to start learning about the art of conversation.

Obviously there are times when a lecture is appropriate, but these people had given no indication that was what they were after.

But I'd also shy away from going too full in the condemnation: people are annoying in conversation all the time and we do have to just learn to deal with that. While also trying not to be that person ourselves.