New restrictions on right to terminate for medical reasons

[Dandelionzebra]

Has anyone seen the article in the times saying an amendment to restrict the right to terminate a pregnancy for medical reasons is likely to be snuck in as an amendment to the criminal justice bill?

I couldn’t work out from the article whether the amendment had actually been tabled yet or was just expected to be tabled shortly.

The article was dressing it up as a disability equality issue for Down’s syndrome but gave no info about how it would actually work in practice (e.g. what about co-occurring conditions could they still mean Tfmr was available? What about if complications made it likely that the fetus with Down syndrome was incompatible with life, what about pregnancies with multiples where at certain advanced gestations it is decided to delay a termination to minimise risk to the other fetus).

Has anyone seen a response for bpas or any other groups? I can’t believe we’re still having to have the argument that late stage Tfmr is rare, usually heartbreaking for those involved but necessary.

I think if a woman doesn’t want to have a baby then preventing her from accessing abortion is dangerous. My relative threw herself down the stairs and then drank bleach in an attempt to end her pregnancy.

But brought by a Tory, and sneakily so. If you're going to reduce the rights of women, do it openly and honestly.

I am horrified by this, if it were up to me i would make it "fair" by introducing as late as necessary for all women but that's unlikely to happen. This shows that all the political parties just see women as incubators/support humans.

I notice that this isnt accompanied by offering NIPT to all women, nor massive additional investment in services for people with disabilities. Almost as if they dont care what happens to the actual humans once they are born....

if it were up to me i would make it "fair" by introducing as late as necessary for all women

I agree. The better way to avoid disbility discrimination would be to allow late termination for any reason, not just TFMR. Funny how they haven’t gone that way.

It's too early. Even twenty years ago, anomaly scans weren't being done until 23 weeks in many areas, then there is referral to other centres for amnio, waiting for results, making a decision, then accessing theatre time for the procedures.

BPAS are definitely discussing it today on Twitter.

FFS, omitted screenshot.

My fear is that restricting access to abortions won’t dramatically reduce the number of abortions, it will simply reduce the number of safe abortions by qualified practitioners.

All it will do is put women in more danger of unsafe abortions, leading to serious injury, infection and even death.

That sounds worryingly like granting fotuses legal personhood. That can only be disastrous for women.

I think Liam Fox's Catholic background and pronouncements on Christianity are far more relevant here than his political party.

There's no such thing as a 'mild form' of DS, it's either there in the chromosomes or not.

I'm not romanticising DS. I have a daughter with it. I could have aborted her all the way through until I went into labour at 37 weeks. Even with this change, I would still be able to tfmr in the same scenario as she also has CHD.

I totally agree with the ability to terminate later for medical reasons. But Downs syndrome isn't that. It's just a genetic condition in which people can have fruitful lives.

You must know that not all people with Downs are capable of living fulfilling, happy lives. You must know there are those who will never have speech, never be toilet trained, always need institutional care. No woman should be forced to take the risk that this will happen in her pregnancy. Your daughter is one of the lucky ones and that is great; it does not give you or anyone else the right to force another woman to risk a situation that may be very different.

Cleft lip, cleft palate and club foot are all currently considered acceptable reasons for abortion up to full-term in this country. The bill mentioned below did not make it past the Commons.

amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/28/mps-bring-bill-to-ban-late-abortions-for-cleft-lip-cleft-palate-and-club-foot

I agree with others who have said the timescales are right. Anomaly scans can be performed after 20 weeks. Then there’s another scan by someone more senior. Then an amniocentesis. This might not be done until a week later. Then wait for the results to come back.

And yes, speaking as the mother of a disabled child, there’s very little provision out there and everything must be fought for. It’s really not easy.

Seems absolutely staggering to me when they are constantly cutting funding and services for disabled people who already exist.

What happens to a person with down syndrome once their parents die and there's no other relatives to care/support/advocate for them?

Will they be creating extra support services to help these people? Will they be creating extra support services to help these mothers?

change in the law would stop people with Down’s syndrome being treated as second-class citizens,

This is just wrong. No foetus is a citizen or has rights. If you start suggesting they are then you basically undermine the principle that women have the right to make decisions about their own bodies.

There may be a limit on what a family can cope with (whether DS or any other condition that is picked up at their 20 week scan) and only they can decide where that limit is. It's totally wrong to try to force an agenda that puts those decisions in the hands of Liam Fox and friends ffs.

I know people with DS who have jobs and social lives but ultimately still need support in some way or another. The parents are still on the hook into their 70s and 80s. They’ve had to fight tooth and nail for any tiny bit of support they could get. The mums have never been able to get back into work.

@HBGKC my son has a cleft lip and palate. Many children are diagnosed with a cleft lip at the 20 week scan and then when they are born (or later) it is discovered that they have a whole host of other problems, sometimes as part of a syndrome and other times not. My son has moderate learning disabilities (so he has similar learning abilities to some of the more able people who have downs syndrome), brain abnormalities, speech problems and hearing loss. He is incontinent most nights. He has had 5 operations, with another coming up (all relating to his cleft) and another 15 general anaesthetics for other procedures. He is very hard work. He is also brilliant, kind and sensitive. I'm so glad I had him and he brings everyone he meets so much joy but this life we lead is not for everyone and I think a lot of people underestimate how difficult it can be having a child with cleft lip and palate. When I was pregnant with my son, so many people thought the midwife would just quickly sew up his lip in the delivery room and were shocked when I told them it would be a 3 hour operation done by a specialist plastic surgeon.

He is truly amazing but I support any woman who wishes to TFMR when their child has a cleft lip/palate.

And of course you conveniently neglect to mention that all of those things can also be markers for far more serious conditions, including some that are incompatible with life. 🙄

Oh, and just in case someone decides to throw this one at me: I have three children. Two have disabilities. One of those has serious disabilities. In their case these manifested later in life, but they are genetic. Would I have terminated had I known what the future held? Probably not. But that would have been my choice, not dictated to me by others.

This confused me too. Also no one knows how they'd feel about it until it happened to them. Some families can maybe cope well others may not be able to.

I don’t think lack of state support for disabled people is in itself an ethically sound reason to allow late term abortions, but we live in the real world and know that it’s almost always going to be the mother who bears the responsibility of her child for the rest of her life.

if people are serious about moving abortion goalposts (probably inevitable as medicine advances) then there is much more important work that could be done to improve quality of life for people, including disabled people and mothers.

Abortion law isn’t the way to solve any of the existing challenges around this issue. The only benefit it will bring is to make some people feel virtuous at no cost to themselves.

Well exactly, and we really don't want to go down the road of giving unborn babies personhood. That leads to women being put in jail for having miscarriages.

This proposed amendment is intended to start really chipping away at UK abortion rights and it has to be challenged.

I had a pregnancy where Downs was indicated by blood tests around 14 weeks. It was a few days before Christmas so had to wait two weeks for amnio then another two weeks for results which were positive for Downs. We already had a child with a chronic medical condition and another with autism so made the absolutely heartbreaking decision to end the pregnancy. It cannot be understated how difficult that decision was for us. It took me many years to come to terms with it and still now 12 years on it hurts to think about. Following our experience, I feel that no woman or their wider family should have decisions about their care and future taken away from them.

Much love to others who have been in the same situation.

@Sussurations whilst it might not be ethical for the state to use the accessibility of support as part of their decision making in this area, it absolutely is and will be a huge element of the decision making for the women having to face the future with a disabled child to consider.