Equality in engineering

[PeoplesRepublic]

Hi
I'm not sure if this the best place to post, but there is often sound advise here in terms of equality.
I was hoping you can help me make sense of how to advise DS.
He is an engineering apprentice becoming fed up of being overlooked for opportunities in favour of girls and minority groups.
I have explained to him about white privilege, and underrepresentation of different groups to him, but I guess this is a macro scale. On a local/micro scale he sees people less competent at the job/course, being given all the opportunities to network and be fast tracked to management before him.
This came to a head with an MP visiting the site and meeting 3 apprentices, 2 of which were girls.
Can anyone help me out here? I can see it from both perspectives, and as a teacher it's something I'm very concious of.

Well it doesn't sound like you see it from both perspectives to me.
What do you mean by a minority group?
How do you know your son is more compentent at the job than the girls and "minority groups" at the course?

The best advice you can give him is to focus on his own work and his own opportunities to network. Produce the best quality work he can. Seek out additional opportunities to get involved in things. Go above and beyond.

Is he really sure that this is ‘less competent’ people being given all the opportunities, or is he simply not seeing all the additional work or effort others are putting in? Is he just making assumptions that these others are not as good as him but being chosen for ‘the wrong reasons’?

He's only got to hang in for a few more years! Engineering is notorious for early years sex distribution being much more equal than mid-career.

But seriously, it's personal attitude that can make a difference. If he can help with recruitment or schools outreach he will get the recognition

Curious to understand why it was a problem that 2 of the 3 were girls, did he expect 2 of the 3 to be boys instead?

Don't worry, those women are very unlikely to get any meaningful benefit like being promoted as they become more senior.... Have a look at ratios of men and women as they progress through their careers.

As pp above, my advice to him would be to focus less on those around him and more on what he can positively do to network, do work that he's not been asked to do but can see would make a difference, take the initiative etc

I work for an engineering/technology based firm. It's 80% male.

he sees people less competent at the job/course, being given all the opportunities to network and be fast tracked to management before him.

These kind of comments get thrown around all the time along with comments about "quotas" and women/gay men/people of colour etc getting promoted when they don't deserve to be.

They are all, without fail, thrown around by mediocre men who think that the presence of a penis makes them "more competent" without having to put in a lot of the extra effort those who are getting noticed are doing.

So is he actually better? Is he actually more competent. Or does he think he's more competent than women automatically. Does he ever actually say that any of the women are more competent or more deserving of any of these opportunities.

Because what I have found is that the actually competent men usually aren't found whining about women (or minorities) getting ahead because they are too busy doing their own job properly and putting in the extra effort needed to get noticed.

@SuperGreens more that every single time there is an opportunity, that is the make up of the group attending. It's the same few people each time. The pool is small, so it becomes very noticeable.

@Setyoufree sound advice similar to what I have given.

Minority groups in engineering - non-white, non-straight males? People that are not the stereotypical engineer.

@ChishiyaBat don't be daft. Of course I can see it from both sides. I'd be telling my daughters to make the most of the extra opportunities. I work in STEM. I have a son who would love to have some of the chances that others are regularly given.

@Neitheronethingnortheother yep totally agree. However he is there with the group everyday, both at work, socially and at uni. I'm sure we can all figure out who is good at their job or not among our colleagues, and students can in the classroom. Of course it might be typical male bullshit, and I have certainly challenged him on this.

Overall, he is feeling disillusioned and overlooked at the moment. I'll continue to encourage him to make his own opportunities as per the great advice above.

Thanks all. You've helped clarify things for me.

The equality act doesn't allow quotas and people being fast tracked to guaranteed roles. It does allow positive action to advertise jobs to e.g. more women, it allows targeted development and it allows you to put in place networking opportunities for under represented groups.

So none of these things mean these women will be actually given jobs and given the sexism rife in STEM, your son has a huge advantage (having a penis and all) and will out earn all of them. He needs to wind his neck in and look for innovative ways to network, develop and be noticed just like women have had to do in his field since the dawn of time.

@Teatrayderby yep a slightly softer version is what I'm going with. He's not long out of school, so I'm being gentle.

I'm not daft thank you very much! I'm just giving you my opinion based on what you wrote. It sounds like to me you are saying my poor son isn't getting the opportunities he deserves because of the girls, but like I say that is just how it reads to me.
Also you never answered my question which was how do you know your son is more competent than the girls?

I'm assuming you mean civil engineering.
Yes I think at the moment there is a lot of positive discrimination towards women and girls 'look how diverse we are'.
However once kids are on the scene lots of women really struggle to manage the long hours, sometimes anti-social hours, and travel that civil engineering demands.

It's not that long ago there was a AIBU with a poster, single parent to two young teens, graduated in engineering, 'Is it OK to leave them from Monday morning to Wednesday night'.

Dd is 16 and an apprentice mechanic. She is more than aware she will be wheeled out if the company want to look good. She knows she may well be given more opportunities than the male apprentice. This makes her feel awkward. She shouldnt have to feel awkward for just doing something she loves.

She thankfully gets on great with the workshop guys who treat her as one of the lads. Which she likes.

As far as she's concerned at the minute the only perk to being female is the use of a clean toilet.

What's the saying - when you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels Like oppression? I know my sons get this sometimes.

I remember a training course colleague who was very resentful of the advantages that men had, for example in interviews. She was right that men had advantages, but I suspected that she was really handicapping herself further because her resentment showed. It’s tough when other people are favoured, but in employment it does you no good to look sulky; all you can do is demonstrate consistently all the behaviours and abilities that are needed by the company, until finally someone recognises that you are the person they want in the role you are aiming for.

His mindset is all wrong. The women and minorities who have these opportunities may have qualities that make them first choice for the particular choices.

The only thing he should be asking himself is what can I learn, how can I get better, how can I grow so I can reach my potential? What skills could I improve to become the best engineer I can? How can I make myself the person managers trust to get the job done?

However he is there with the group everyday, both at work, socially and at uni. I'm sure we can all figure out who is good at their job or not among our colleagues, and students can in the classroom.

I totally get what you mean about figuring out who is good or not but biases can still play a part.

We have a guy on one of our teams who thinks he is better than everyone else on the team because he does 60% of the job really really well. But he totally misses the fact that he doesn't do the other 40%, never volunteers for anything extra and in fact causes massive issues. But if you spoke to him he would confidently say he is better because all he cares about is the 60%. Incidentally the rest of his team are women, poc and a gay man. And I'm pretty sure some of his bias is around that. In particular with assuming that the women will pick up the extra admin tasks and be expected to do as much "normal" work as he does without those extra admin tasks

Does he agree that any of the women or people from minorities are better than him at anything? Because if he doesn't then it's just biases playing out and the issue is more likely to be him.

My husband is a senior engineer and recruiter for a multi-national company. It depends on the kind of opportunities you are talking about. He recruits against a list of attributes that he'd like to see in an applicant, not just one thing. This is important for your DS to remember. It's not just his sex that will see him win opportunities and jobs; and that applies to young women in engineering, too. He needs to have good marks, be capable, and through his work show that he is keen to learn and grow. That is the type of person my DH recruits, male or female. There is no quota.