Women and absence meetings.

[tiredofthisshitt]

I've posted in 'the staff room' but think it's more a feminist issue. Does anyone have experience of this, in a school (or elsewhere?)

Just wondering if anyone has had challenging meetings following sickness / absence? Increasingly, female colleagues are finding themselves in a position where they have having to discuss absence issues of an intimate / gynaecological nature with male members of SLT (example - UTI’s and miscarriages). I feel really strongly that this shouldn’t be allowed to happen - we are employed, not owned - and surely this is a breach of some human rights / equality law? I suspect the SLT would say they don’t demand these details, but there is a strong emphasis on ‘proving’ your absence was justified. Anyone got any thoughts or have any experience of this? Female colleagues seem to be reluctantly accepting this as necessary to their jobs, but I'm keen to oppose this.

My experience:

In the 90s I took a day off sick leave as I'd had a termination of pregnancy and felt more unwell than expected afterwards.

I was working for a huge british broadcasting corporation and had a permanent contract as that's how it was back then. I had rung in sick with a cold / flu but my male boss who had been harassing me in different ways jumped on it. When I came back to work he'd taken me to final written warning for excessive sick leave (I'd actually had a total of 9 days that year which was two days below the corporation average of 11 days per annum, the union later determined this). I'd had no prior warnings, verbal or written.

Anyhow he had a bee in his bonnet and demanded that I went to the corporation nurse to explain 'the real reason' I'd been off. I refused to do that so he then took me to final written warning for 'refusal to obey a management order'. He actually took me to final written warning on four separate subjects in the second letter, including giving one example of late time-keeping where I was witnessed by numerous people to have arrived early and not late! It was deranged and hateful bullying. Also he was using his wife's guidance - she was head of personnel, as it was called in those days, so bizarre all of it.

I brought in the union who identified harassment, sexual harassment, constructive dismissal. I was offered a different job in a different building but only on a six months contract. I suspected this was just probably walking me out. I was sick of the whole corporation by this point (seems that more recent history has revealed quite the level of sickness underpinning that corporation). So, with the work of the union and TUC, I took a negotiated pay off and signed a non-disclosure agreement.

Obviously he was a rogue employee and an abuser but he kept his six figure salary job intact and it was me who had to walk. I don't know how it is these days as I don't work any more but the idea that a woman should have to explain personal issues to a male boss is abhorrent. Or any person male or female even, we are entitled to private lives and our confidentiality, we're not 'chattel'.

First, I've never had this happen.

Second, I can't imagine that there isn't some way to make an evasive generalization and leave it at that.

Third, I can't help wondering about the reaction if a woman went into such detail that the man would be squirming and would cut off the narrative.

All of those things are true, and have happened. It's not as simple as that though in a workplace with domineering management. Sounds easy to do - and I would definitely do it. But young staff, who are scared of rocking the boat with their career, might not find it so easy. Really, I was just wondering how prevalent this is within schools. It seems to be on the increase.

For reference, no way would I feel under any obligation - but I've been in the job For years.

Do you mean return to work/absence management conversations? They’re pretty standard in most places of work.

How else do you suggest they’re managed?

Well it is what it is really. Your employers surely do need to know why you were off in order they can facilitate your health and safety and that you are fit to return? I imagine a fit to work note would have been in place for a miscarriage and a uti well its hardly embarrassing is it? Might a man not feel uncomfortable returning to work after say a vasectomy and have to explain to a younger female? Seems to me people just look for something to complain about all the time., but them I'm older and if not wiser, certainly not embarrassed about any medical conditions.

In the NHS I've always had to give the reason why I was off, whether or not my manager was male or female. How can they offer you support if they don't know the real reason or refer you to the employee assistance programme. Really doesn't both me and I've been off with gynae conditions and had to tell a male manager. Also, pregnancy related disorders don't count towards sickness absence triggers.

I agree it’s really weird to tell someone why you’re off
even if it’s d&v why do they need to know your private business, They don’t own you.

and the facilitation argument makes no sense, surely as an adult I can choose to verbalise if I need support returning. It’s not up to a non medically trained person to decide if my sickness was ‘sick enough’
self certify exists, if you don’t trust your employees to self certify you likely have bigger organisational issues.

but yes, clearly this is an issue that impacts women more.

I don’t think this is an issue. If you were really uncomfortable you could say I only want to discuss this with a female colleague because it’s very personal / intimate. If that then wasn’t accommodated that would potentially be an issue.

But my dh had to talk to his female boss about his vasectomy. It isn’t just a female issues.

surely as an adult I can choose to verbalise if I need support returning

And that would be fine if that was what the law allowed for. But when you have chosen not to inform your employer of something that then causes further injury or damage to you, you will be ok waiving the demand for compensation because of their inactions?

The law is clear on at least two counts. Both employer and employee have a legal duty to protect their health and safety, and in order to do that they need to be able to have these conversations. And to operate any form of sickness absence management the employer must have an established and clear process, and certain "conditions" require either excluding from the monitoring or reasonable adjustments to be made. For example - pregnancy related illness (which includes miscarriages and terminations) cannot be included in sickness absence (which clearly benefits women although I don't see you suggesting this is unfair on men).

If a woman is uncomfortable talking about certain issues, whether health related or not, then it is entirely reasonable to ask to speak to a woman - we would routinely agree to this. The same though would apply to a man - if his prefeences was to discuss health issues with another man we would allow for this. So speak up if that is what you want.

Not everything is discrimination.

I think the issue is that we shouldn't have to disclose personal medical information - and as a woman having to disclose to a male colleague (management is all male - a whole other issue) this isn't ideal.

As an adult, members of staff are capable of asking for support should they need it. That's not for management to decide.

And finally - yes of course we need to explain absence. That's not what I said at all. But I don't think we should have to disclose personal details (yes, actually, for some women discussing a UTI might well be embarrassing. We are all different and have different experiences. Historical abuse, for example)

Like I said, I was just wondering how common this is - and it seems to vary.

I don’t really see the issue. You are working under a contract of employment so if you can’t attend work, and still want to be paid it doesn’t seem unreasonable to me that an employee should have to provide some detail about why you’ve been off. No one needs gory details but the basic information is fair enough I think.

A good employer will want to be able to provide support on return if necessary and I get the point that people can ask but sometimes people feel uncomfortable doing that, example being I’ve suggested phased return to an employee who I felt was pushing themselves to come back too soon who took me up on it. It also helps employers identify issues, if I suddenly have a lot of people off with stress or back pain I need to look at working practices. In addition absence related to pregnancy isn’t included in sickness triggers so benefits women to say if that’s the reason for absence

As an adult, members of staff are capable of asking for support should they need it. That's not for management to decide.

You are missing the point. It actually IS for management to decide, and the law says so!!!

As an adult, memebers of staff are also capable of saying "I would prefer to discuss this with a woman / man". If your entire management / HR/ occupational health are all male, then you have much bigger problems than discussing your reasons for being off sick.

Nobody has to disclose any medical information - but if they wish to be paid sick pay, and to continue in employment, then they will need to engage with the employers lawful processes and their joint responsibility for health and safety. Of course, if they do not wish to do this, they can seek employment elsewhere, perhaps somewhere with a more balanced / diverse management structure.

I completely understand OP. I collapsed a few years ago with an underactive thyroid (dangerously low- I had been feeling like shit for ages and GP had gave me A.D and said I must be stressed etc blah blah even though I looked and felt like shit and told him that) anyway, my return to work interview consisted of my line manager mansplaining thyroid issues as "something older women get" (false) and "women's hormoney issues" (men can get it as well, although majority women but he was trying to say it was all just in my head and nervy women nonsense. Always get a union rep to accompany you and try and get a women rep if you can for these meetings ! You can ask for it to be rearranged until one becomes available . Granted ,private employers are more narker and can refuse but this can lose bad for them if it goes to a tribunal.

For info I was on a local authority social work role.

*look (sorry! my eyesight is atrocious!)

I think it depends what you mean by "discuss" if it's write it on a form or a 2 minute conversation fair enough. If it's a detailed insight into the workings of your menstrual cycle I would be asking why they need that much detail. Don't forget I assume you are getting sick pay so they have to have a reason. I'd use the medical latin terms and not engage further.

It’s normally written on your sick note what your off with anyway

if you self cert for 7 days and refuse to give a reason rightly so they’d think you were taking the piss
return to work interview about sickness have been standard in every company I’ve worked for

Well your manager sounds rubbish but I don’t agree that standard advice should be to have a woman union rep accompany you to a return to work meeting.

Most return to work interviews don’t need to go further than “glad you’re better, nice to have you back” but in your case it sounds like you’d been seriously ill so your employer should have been doing one properly to explore whether you needed adjustments, phasing in, different type of work for a while, time off for medical appointments etc. They are not (or shouldn’t be) trying to catch you out or implying you didn’t need to be off. Most sickness policies are clear about why they should be done and how they should be conducted. And yes I think your employer is entitled to an appropriate degree of private medical information if you are not able to come to work.

I know people are different and understand that there may be particular difficulties in some circumstances but I also don’t see why , as a general rule, women shouldn’t be expected to mention “women’s problems “ with a male manager (and vice versa) it’s a work place and you’re grown ups. I don’t think managers want a blow by blow account but what is wrong with saying “I’ve had a miscarriage/a uti”? It’s on them to deal with that appropriately and sensitively.

Nobody is suggesting refusing to give a reason...

Yes, agree with this.

Agree with this! Thank you. I am finding that having to hide menopause symptoms is tricky too in a mainly male workforce.

The whole concept of the absence meeting is weird. Adults should be trusted, it’s only ever a minority who are skiving

But then how do you work out who needs extra support and who is skiving?

I don't see how anyone male or female should be expected to disclose their private and confidential medical information to someone non-medically qualified. Maybe this isn't what the law states, I wouldn't know.

If I had two days off work because having to deal with an unwanted pregnancy was exceptionally stressful, caused me mental health problems and trauma as well as physical difficulties because of hormones and sickness plus the termination itself didn't go smoothly, then damn right I don't wish to explain that to any person apart from a medical doctor who is holding my medical confidentiality. I'd ring in sick and say I have flu. Of course I'd be prepared to go to my GP or other medical doctor to have a cover note but explain to HR? Or a manager? Why? No way, that's outrageous.

Ditto I would want the same for every living human being including men who also have private and confidential difficulties that are nobody's business except them and their doctor.

Apparently the law now states that an employer must make 'reasonable adjustments' for any female employee struggling with menopause symptoms. I only know this as I attended a seminar on it but can't quote any facts or links. There were things discussed about being able to sit on a desk nearer to an exit (for taking breaks and accessing the toilet), being able to wear uniforms made of breathable natural fibres and other stuff to do with hot flushes.