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Feminism: chat
Gowlett · 26/09/2023 17:22

I think the Bennett sisters are entitled to their stance.
Louise / Kelle are well within their rights to disagree.

Shame it’s detailed the Eternal reunion tour.
I can see why gay folk on Louise’s team would be pissed off, though. The trans thing is enmeshed in LGBTQ now.

littlripper · 27/09/2023 13:11

It is more complex than it's being presented as the Bennett sisters are members of a homophobic church

LondonLass91 · 27/09/2023 20:21

littlripper · 27/09/2023 13:11

It is more complex than it's being presented as the Bennett sisters are members of a homophobic church

Really? Pray do enlighten us?

Helleofabore · 27/09/2023 21:42

littlripper · 27/09/2023 13:11

It is more complex than it's being presented as the Bennett sisters are members of a homophobic church

So why have they performed at Pride events in 2014?

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 28/09/2023 00:39

As a lifelong massive Eternal fan I am gutted by this decision, however I totally get it
Louise’s fan base is almost entirely lgbtq+
So if a decision is made by half of the band to not play pride festivals (for their own reasons, which are not homophobic but I would class as transphobic) then I totally get how she would not be able to justify going along with it.
she played Sink the Pink regularly! She has worked with trans and gender-queer dancers and producers, She can’t throw her colleagues and friends under the bus for a payday!

no villains here, just two different positions on an issue with no real way to compromise

personally I don’t see why being gender critical (as Vernie is) means you can’t play pride But if she feels that strongly about it then fair enough. Moaning about being called out for your own decision seems a bit pathetic tbh

DogsAkimbo · 28/09/2023 02:52

ArabellaScott · 27/09/2023 14:43

I made a thread on the other board.

Have you more information on the sisters being members of a 'homophobic church', littlripper?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4904644-eternal-reunion-collapses-after-disagreements-over-playing-pride

Thanks, I hadn’t seen this one!

OP posts:
BringOn2021 · 28/09/2023 02:56

@littlripper you really do talk nonsense! ‘Homophobic church’ 😂 Reading this baseless comment really does just highlight the type of faceless hate people are willing to spew. It’s easy doing it in a text box, right? Provide the link that gives credence to this false claim, or pls suck it in and play nicely! No one likes to see ugly …

Lampzade · 28/09/2023 03:03

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 28/09/2023 00:39

As a lifelong massive Eternal fan I am gutted by this decision, however I totally get it
Louise’s fan base is almost entirely lgbtq+
So if a decision is made by half of the band to not play pride festivals (for their own reasons, which are not homophobic but I would class as transphobic) then I totally get how she would not be able to justify going along with it.
she played Sink the Pink regularly! She has worked with trans and gender-queer dancers and producers, She can’t throw her colleagues and friends under the bus for a payday!

no villains here, just two different positions on an issue with no real way to compromise

personally I don’t see why being gender critical (as Vernie is) means you can’t play pride But if she feels that strongly about it then fair enough. Moaning about being called out for your own decision seems a bit pathetic tbh

I agree

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 03:40

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 28/09/2023 00:39

As a lifelong massive Eternal fan I am gutted by this decision, however I totally get it
Louise’s fan base is almost entirely lgbtq+
So if a decision is made by half of the band to not play pride festivals (for their own reasons, which are not homophobic but I would class as transphobic) then I totally get how she would not be able to justify going along with it.
she played Sink the Pink regularly! She has worked with trans and gender-queer dancers and producers, She can’t throw her colleagues and friends under the bus for a payday!

no villains here, just two different positions on an issue with no real way to compromise

personally I don’t see why being gender critical (as Vernie is) means you can’t play pride But if she feels that strongly about it then fair enough. Moaning about being called out for your own decision seems a bit pathetic tbh

Your issue is that you consider the Bennet sisters transphobic. Neither of them have stated they hate trans people. They are protesting the prioritisation of gender over sex in relation to LGB people and women.

In the same framing, you must consider feminists to hate male people. Is that what you think? That feminists are misandrist?

”Moaning about being called out for your own decision seems a bit pathetic tbh”

I think you will find that they have complained about how Nurding and her manager have twisted their decision to do exactly what you have done. A move that in their case is based on fear of ever being associated with people who disagree on this issue. They both shaped their statements to portray the Bennet sisters as transphobic.

They are absolutely justified to point out that their opinion has been misrepresented in this way.

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 28/09/2023 03:52

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 03:40

Your issue is that you consider the Bennet sisters transphobic. Neither of them have stated they hate trans people. They are protesting the prioritisation of gender over sex in relation to LGB people and women.

In the same framing, you must consider feminists to hate male people. Is that what you think? That feminists are misandrist?

”Moaning about being called out for your own decision seems a bit pathetic tbh”

I think you will find that they have complained about how Nurding and her manager have twisted their decision to do exactly what you have done. A move that in their case is based on fear of ever being associated with people who disagree on this issue. They both shaped their statements to portray the Bennet sisters as transphobic.

They are absolutely justified to point out that their opinion has been misrepresented in this way.

I didn’t say they hated trans people 🤦🏻‍♀️
I said I thought their decision to not play pride festivals was transphobic because it has been made in response to a perceived hijacking of the community by trans people. I think that’s transphobic. Actions can be transphobic without individuals “hating” trans people

i also do not believe feminists are misandrist, what a very strange comment??

we’re allowed to disagree on one point, it doesn’t mean we’re going to be opposed on everything! Not everything is a fight, sometimes it’s a discussion.

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 04:59

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 28/09/2023 03:52

I didn’t say they hated trans people 🤦🏻‍♀️
I said I thought their decision to not play pride festivals was transphobic because it has been made in response to a perceived hijacking of the community by trans people. I think that’s transphobic. Actions can be transphobic without individuals “hating” trans people

i also do not believe feminists are misandrist, what a very strange comment??

we’re allowed to disagree on one point, it doesn’t mean we’re going to be opposed on everything! Not everything is a fight, sometimes it’s a discussion.

i obviously didn’t explain well enough.

Much of feminist theory is based on how male people have been and still may be prioritised, and how that influences the decisions made by people and organisations. Which is comparable to what the Bennett sisters have allegedly described in the email they sent, but from the perspective that trans people’s needs have now been prioritised above the needs of LGB people and women and children. Ie. Gender has been prioritised over sex when sex based needs should have at least equal priority in some instances.

Therefore, in my opinion and to give a comparative example, using the same framing as you have made, a feminist who chose to perform only for female audiences for an particular organisation or group of organisations until female people are treated equally by that organisation or group would be misandrist. Using your framing. Do you see how that works?

A phobia is a fear or hatred or aversion of something isn’t it? What definition are you using if ‘hatred’, even if not explicit. is not integral to the meaning of transphobia? Do you mean to use a much less emotive word perhaps?

Something like ‘the Bennett sisters disagree with the current political direction Pride has taken’ perhaps?

A comparison would be the decision of the feminist performer to only perform for organizations that they feel have given full consideration and equal prioritisation to female people is not based on any ‘fear, hatred or aversion’ to male people. It is a political stance. Would you characterise it another way? If so, how and why?

And Yes. We can disagree. And we are.

In what way have I even mentioned opposing you or ‘fighting’ you or anyone else in any other issue? Isn’t that a rather polarised and hyperbolic approach to take?

Much like the approach in declaring the Bennet sisters as being transphobic? To label someone as being transphobic is a strong judgement call. Apart from the sisters disagreeing over Pride’s political prioritisation of some groups over others, what do you base that accusation on?

So, Because I posted about your mischaracterisation of the Bennett sister’s declaration as being transphobic, you posit that I somehow now will disagree with you about ‘everything’ and that I am somehow ‘fighting’ you. That is hyperbolic. It is an overexaggeration and over dramatisation of our interaction. Why do that?

I can assure you, I don’t take the attitude that we will disagree on everything. And I do believe we are having a discussion about that disagreement.

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 05:29

TLDR

Please explain how the Bennett sisters are transphobic ? Have they expressed any blanket hatred or aversion to trans people in any other communication?

If I choose to no longer use Primark because I believe they have not considered the needs of women and girls sufficiently with their decision to make their curtained cubicles mixed sex, am I phobic of all clothes retailers? Or just making a political statement in my choice of supporting a particular organisation?

If the Bennett sisters had the option of performing for an organisation where the transgender members needs were not prioritised above the needs of homosexual and bisexual people or women and children, are you saying that they would still refuse?

Because that would indicate transphobia.

I believe you have mischaracterised the Bennett sister’s motives and made an accusation of transphobia. It is not transphobic to recognise the conflicts in rights between transgender people and homosexual and bisexual people and transgender people and women and children.

It is not transphobic to make a political decision to not support an organisation who prioritises one group of people over another protected character in their campaigning efforts in law and policy.

Ofcourseshecan · 29/09/2023 16:36

The main issue, to me, is that Louise deliberately put her band mates in danger. Anyone who dares oppose men’s ‘right’ to women’s spaces (which is the core of transgender demands) risks job loss, violence and death threats. Many artists and performers have lost their livelihoods. Exposing her two colleagues to a pile on by transactivists was disgusting.

SecretShambles · 29/09/2023 18:07

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 28/09/2023 00:39

As a lifelong massive Eternal fan I am gutted by this decision, however I totally get it
Louise’s fan base is almost entirely lgbtq+
So if a decision is made by half of the band to not play pride festivals (for their own reasons, which are not homophobic but I would class as transphobic) then I totally get how she would not be able to justify going along with it.
she played Sink the Pink regularly! She has worked with trans and gender-queer dancers and producers, She can’t throw her colleagues and friends under the bus for a payday!

no villains here, just two different positions on an issue with no real way to compromise

personally I don’t see why being gender critical (as Vernie is) means you can’t play pride But if she feels that strongly about it then fair enough. Moaning about being called out for your own decision seems a bit pathetic tbh

I'm gender critical and wouldn't want to have anything to do with pride. Pride is predominantly trans focused now, and trans beliefs are in direct opposition to gender critical. I wouldn't want to support an event that opposes my own side.

Finteq · 29/09/2023 18:11

Ofcourseshecan · 29/09/2023 16:36

The main issue, to me, is that Louise deliberately put her band mates in danger. Anyone who dares oppose men’s ‘right’ to women’s spaces (which is the core of transgender demands) risks job loss, violence and death threats. Many artists and performers have lost their livelihoods. Exposing her two colleagues to a pile on by transactivists was disgusting.

Agree.

It's one thing to decide not to do a reunion.

It's another to go public,and put her former bandmates in danger.

Then a few days after the backlash go on Loose Women so she could stick the knife in deeper.

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