Wedding/marriage traditions

[Emmaheather]

Does anyone else find the number of women planning to marry in white and change their name shocking? Although I can see the beauty and glamour of a white dress, and the practicality of changing names, these are traditions which have such a strong association with the suppression of women and misogyny I find them unacceptable. I wanted to share a surname with my children so they have both mine and their dad's.
I'd be interested to hear how people who view themselves as feminist reconcile this with marriage traditions which a reflection of a male dominated society and women's suppression. I would challenge other behaviours which are sexist or misogynist but this isn't something I feel i can ask friends about for fear of offending. I think it's important to give up these traditions given their history but I'm surprised to find myself in the minority among peers. I'd be really interested in others views on this.

This. I felt exactly the same about the aisle walking. My dad probably said 4 words in the entire planning process. DH and I did it and MIL inserted herself. It was nice to have some time with just us.

The name is a whole other thing.

I wasn't "given away"- didn't feel right.
And- I hate to hear "you may kiss the bride"- permission from the wrong person. Ownership thing again glad it wasn't said at my wedding.

I understand you OP. However I think the meaning of some things can fade. We go married after 10 years together ans having had our children. I did wear a white dress (which my mum questioned) and in the end went for something pretty wedding-y with a bit of a train.

it was a lot but when trying on dresses I realised this was the one chance I’d get to wear THAT much of a dress, I loved it, looked fab in it, felt fab in it so did it!

I have not changed my name. Have had some healthy debates with good friends about this. We’re all highly educated, high powered jobs and feminists, and the split among us is about 50/50 change names and keep our own.

our children have my surname as a middle name so it’s in there.

my dad did give me away and I felt uncomfortable about that, and that I’d got bounced into it.

we’ve had a rocky relationship and I would have rather walked down the aisle alone, I think.

but he really really wanted to. I reflected on whether to refuse and decided it wasn’t worth it to me.

afterwards, I’m glad about that I think. Though emotionally a poor dad (and he gave a terrible speech in which he failed to say even basic things like he loved me) he has empowered me in other ways….

He taught me all he knew about business and I have a great and well paid career. He helped me buy my own place when young.

This financial autonomy and independence has empowered me to build an equal relationship with my husband. I had no fear of standing my ground about share of parenting duties, for example. If now DH hasn’t stepped up I could have left him and been a single mum supporting myself and the kids just fine.

We've never discussed this but DH knew it and I believe there we’re times it motivated him to step up whereas if he’d felt I was dependent on him he probably wouldn’t have.

so despite his flaws I’m grateful to my dad who does love me even though he can’t say so. He shows it in other ways ans looking back I’m glad he got his moment on our wedding day.

Because you feel comfortable about it and it worked out for you personally, does that mean it isn't a misogynist tradition?

Just because something originated in a misogynist tradition, I don't think every performance of it is demonstrating misogyny. It's an interesting thing to think about. If everyone involved is aware the dad doesn't really have any right to "give away" anyone, and generally acts in accordance with this attitude, I think it's basically a sort of meaningless performance that pretty much just signifies "this is a wedding, we are doing weddingy things, I am involved" - similar to wearing white, or a veil.

But if the dad or anyone else believes yeah, it's up to me to give the bride away, I guess you could see it as reinforcing that.

But lots of people are owning it on this thread, by saying they know the background buy wanted to anyway. That's what they mean by their choice.

Another important consideration for me is that my wedding isn't just about me and my fiance, which I know is a deeply unpopular opinion on MN. But my dad would be very upset to not walk me down the aisle, and I love him to bits. He's the parent I call if I'm needing a but of support, so why would I not appreciate the opportunity to spend some time together before the ceremony and have him calm any nerves?

I did all three! Well my dress was Red and White! Having my dad walk me down the aisle was one of the nicest memories we have together, We had time alone in my room before we left and we both had a private chat, cried and hugged ( both dad and I are not at all emotional) and I will treasure that chat and the walk forever.

My dad has never “owned” me nor has my husband so he had no reason to give me away to him but I have such a close bond with my dad and him being by my side on my wedding dad was perfect and I know everyone on here has strong opinions on why it’s wrong but to me it was one of our closest moments and the things said that day by him will never leave me

I have my husband’s last name because I wanted it, it’s really that simple!! My choice had absolutely nothing to do with feminism or tradition, I just wanted us to have the same name, he said he didn’t blame me if I didn’t want it because of the spelling so he was happy either way but I’m glad we share the same last name and still happy with my choice 15 years later

Most people don't give any thought to the origin of these traditions. At least not the ones where they gain. Lots of women want a gorgeous white dress and a sparkly ring and for their dad to walk them down the aisle.
^I'm with you more on the name thing, particularly when it comes to children being given the dad's name as a default, even when the couple aren't married and sometimes not even together. I'll never understand that one, since it still disadvantages the mother. Wearing the white dress etc has no meaningful impact.

I did change my name (and our son's last name. He had my name until we were married). I sometimes feel like I should have given that more thought, since my name is part of my identity. There was no pressure from dh to change it, although he did like having our son share his name since he's an only child and I now have nephews to carry on my family name. But again there was no pressure to give DS his name before we got married. The ils weren't happy, I suspect but their view wasn't part of my consideration.

I think what's more important for feminism is dealing with the rollback on women's rights in places like America.^

You didn't ask if it was a misogynist tradition. You said, "I'd be interested to hear how people who view themselves as feminist reconcile this with marriage traditions which a reflection of a male dominated society and women's suppression." I told you how I reconciled it.

My father and DH weren't suppressing me. And I wasn't suppressing myself.

I spend a great deal of time trying to assist women in abusive relationships get safe. If I want to walk down a symbolic path with my dad, I don't think that makes me unfeminist. In fact I know it doesn't.

Like some others, I wore a white dress, walked down the aisle with my dad and changed my name. I worried a lot whether I was being un feminist changing my name and it bothered me how the expectation (from society in general, no pressure from my husband) is that I’d change my name rather than my husband changing his. However I kept and still use my previous name at work, and I really like that. It keeps the network / connections thing like a pp mentioned, and it also now creates a nice degree of privacy between my professional and personal life which is a nice bonus. Most importantly I felt that work and my position in my career was 100% MY thing and so it was important for me to keep my name that I achieved that in for it.

I did also ask my sister, sisters in law and mum to do speeches/ readings as I hated that the traditional father of bride, groom and best man speech meant it was all men talking.

White dress= fashion trend started by Queen Victoria who married for love. This tradition has zero to do with the oppression of women and is actually a demonstration of marrying freely for love instead of forced marriage.

Changing names= not associated with oppression of women because even in cultures which are not patrilineal (naming along the male line), as in cultures that are matrilineal (naming goes by female line) or a mix women are still oppressed.

So, what you find unacceptable is an ahistorical view that is very British centric and I’m not surprised you’re in the minority view.

I can see that a white dress/virginity have become conflated and I wasn't aware of the queen victoria thing. I was aware of the huge discrepancy in how men and women are viewed in society in general for being sexually active/having multiple partners.

Just because not all patriarchal societies encourage women to change their name to their husbands does not mean this isn't a form of surpression of women in many societies. I don't understand your logic on that one.

I hear you have reasons why this felt comfortable. My question sort of was why, as a feminist, would you want to incorporate a misogynist tradition. What I'm hearing is that many aren't concerned about the origin or symbolism of the tradition.

Really sorry you grew up with that.

Change your name now? Take that decision into your own hands and free yourself from their name and association? As easy to do by Deed Poll as marriage.

Ongoing strength and good wishes, whatever you decide.

I think you keep using the term "misogynist tradition" without bothering to analyse whether actually doing it now is misogynist or not. As per my previous post.

Traditions in themselves are odd things, often done because they've always been done, but can make the occasion feel unique as that occasion to many because of this (Christmas trees etc). The level of meaning of the symbol will vary between people, audiences and the traditions themselves. I put a tree in my house because "it's Christmassy", which may be somewhat of a vicious circle but I don't have any particular affinity with Germany or Victorian England or whatever.

Personally, the level of misogyny in my dad remains unchanged by whether he walks certain steps in a ceremony. Others will find it far more meaningful.

The name thing with respect to work is quite interesting. I got married quite young so I wasn’t even slightly concerned with losing my status/reputation at work. I wonder if I actually would change it now that I’ve built a pretty decent career.

I think this beautifully sums up and explains what I was trying to get at in my earlier post.

For me the current manifestation of a trad wedding is patriarchal rather than misogynist.

People like tradition and ceremony.

We can reclaim them.

It’s often interesting to see what choices same sex couples make when marrying as the sex differentiated traditions are absent.

I never use the term ‘maiden name’ but Birth name / original name / former name.

Mothers, or mothers and fathers can walk both sons and daughters down the aisle. Or couple to be married walk together.

Both or neither give / wear rings.

You can mix and match brides and grooms attendants in terms of sex

Speeches can be made by men and women. Mother of groom, Brides best friend, etc.

Equal assumption about who might change name, reciprocal double barrelling.

Equal assumption about which parents name a baby takes (So many women say “I changed my name because I wanted the same name as my children” Well give them your name then! And have your DH change so that people don’t assume he is a step dad! Or at least have the discussion about it).

Whatever individual decisions we make we can’t pretend that the current status quo is not built on patriarchy.

Men seem to have far more ownership of their names and identify it as their name rather than their Dad’s name.

Where are the men who can’t wait to change a name that is hard to spell or pronounce? Who want to rid the name of an abusive father? Who will happily change to have the same name as their kids? Few and far between, that’s where!

Each time a different choice is made it tips the balance to the status quo being equal and not putting more assumptions on women changing their name than men. That’s why for now not changing your name is a feminist choice.

Yes, you can change your name and be a feminist, but that wasn’t a specifically feminist choice.

By 'misogynist tradition' I mean a tradition rooted in misogyny. I do think I have analysed it and am confident in that conclusion. I'm not saying anyone who does this isn't a feminist or empowered but I do think we should be questioning traditions more critically at a societal level.

I see parallels with other traditions. Im sure most who engage in them are not intending to be racist and just having a nice Christmas, but maybe we should step back and think why are we doing things in a particular way and do we want to keep going with it. E.g. https://humanityinaction.org/knowledge_detail/black-pete-analyzing-a-racialized-dutch-tradition-through-the-history-of-western-creations-of-stereotypes-of-black-peoples/

Re names, it can feel like you're choosing between your dad's surname or your partner's dad's.
The act of choosing one or the other felt like more of a "me" thing than defaulting to my dad's name.

I know at least one man who changed his name on marriage. Think he's reverted back now that ended.

By 'misogynist tradition' I mean a tradition rooted in misogyny.

"Rooted in" is too vague for me, I'm afraid!

Literally any tradition in the UK that goes back more than a few years will have been originated in a misogynist or patriarchal society. It's whether the act itself is misogynist or not that should be the focus, in my opinion.

I do think we should be questioning traditions more critically at a societal level.

I agree with this. It will be a slow change though as generally people like to hang on to things their predecessors did.

My OH was a man who couldn't wait to change his name, so he did as soon as he was 18 (to his maternal grandmother's name, I think). He did offer to change his name to mine but now he's established in his business I'm not so sure he would any more (especially as having a foreign name can be not so good for business in Finland). For me I wouldn't want to change my name because I like my name so much, and I'm so used to it, its part of me, but if I wasn't so attached to it I would consider changing to an entirely new name for both of us on marriage (that's also a thing here, not very common but common enough to be recognised as a thing)

By 'misogynist tradition' I mean a tradition rooted in misogyny. I do think I have analysed it and am confident in that conclusion.

That doesn't address the poster's point though. 'Rooted in' doesn't mean 'still represents'.
I'm not saying anyone who does this isn't a feminist or empowered but I do think we should be questioning traditions more critically at a societal level.

These kinds of things are being questioned all the time, and lots of women are rejecting them, but many people, however aware they are of the origins, simply aren't interested in being made to feel guilty about enjoying things they like and which are not causing harm. You might argue that they are causing harm because they are perpetuating these expectations of women. But what do you want to do? Actually ban women from wearing white wedding dresses, wearing high heels, wearing make-up etc?

Re: Christmas - yes I do want to keep doing it the way I do, thanks. And I don't think you'll find many people on a UK-based forum for whom 'Black Pete' or any other racist stereotype is part of their Christmas tradition!

Surely you're barely aware of the traditions yourself😂 I wore white, I got married in a religious ceremony and I like the idea of having a white gown at christening, communion, confirmation and my wedding. I also think it's a very striking colour and looks great. I was not a virgin but to be honest that never really was an issue for me. My dad accompanied me up the aisle- he didn't give me away. That's not a part of RC, and to be honest something I didn't know happened h til I watched the Royal wedding.

We live and are historically based in a misogynistic society. So chances are every choice is based on that. Your perception is every choice that mirrors the past is not a choice. However based on that logic if you make a choice specifically to avoid misogynistic traditions you are still allowing that society rule your choices. For example- I kept my name because otherwise I would be perpetuating the idea that I'm properly of either my father or husband. That's a choice that's come about directly from a misogynistic .