What is feminism?

[Happylittlechicken]

After spending a few days on the feminist boards I’m now more confused than ever about what feminism is. I always thought feminism was the fight for women to achieve parity with men, to break free of the shackles of gender stereotypes and become the very best they could be. Supporting all females in their choices of how they wish to live their lives and smashing the patriarchy.

Apparently not. When feminism includes and centres males, how can it be feminism? I don’t mean feminists should denigrate or abuse men, or put men down, but it is not women’s job to centre men in their lives. Why should women be expected to support and nurture men. How many times on international womens day have we seen “but what about the men”? I’ve seen women turn on other women for “not doing feminism properly because they don’t include males”. I’ve seen “feminists” argue that sex is irrelevant in womens fight for rights, and we should focus on gender. Instead of smashing gender norms, these feminists want women to embrace them, and declare anyone who subscribes to those stereotypes Is a woman, and if you don’t…. Are you really a woman?

I will never centre men in my feminism. Feminism is for women and we should be allowed that. Seems we can't have anything of our own anymore. Periods, childbirth, breastfeeding, menopause, HRT, pay issues, inequalities due to motherhood or other caring duties etc. No, it's all what about the poor men?

I know That’s why I’m confused. I don’t understand how you can discuss womens rights when you remove one of the 3 axis of oppression. Sex, race and class. If you remove sex, then surely it’s not feminism, but just general egalitarianism?

Exactly.

i tend to think in terms of equality of opportunity

it's easier to say what isn't feminism than what is in my experience

OP, you need to have a chat with a poster ‘Planet Luna’. I think you could give her some useful hints.

For me feminism is about equal rights and equal opportunities.
Woman should have the same options and possibilities as man.

I sympathize with Planet Luna.
I think some people here are way to “destracted” by a hand full of transactivists. I know several trans people and none of them has such extreme ideas which are often posted here. They are just nice people who want a quiet life of not being bullied or stared at. They will go to any toilet people will accept them to go (often the mens rooms aren’t a safe place for them either!)

And while you are busy quarreling …there are so many topics here about women in abusive relationships which they can’t get out of, single moms with moneyproblems totally on their own. Real problems of real people and dozens of them! It makes me so sad to see all these topics and then read that you think transactivists are the biggest problem for women right now.

@DutchCowgirl so women housed with rapists in prisons aren't real problems? Women and girls forced to share changing rooms with men aren't real problems? Women and girls self excluding from using public facilities aren't real problems? Girls losing out on sports teams to grown men? Women bring raped on women only hospital wards? Losing access to women only rape services?

Have a bloody word with yourself.

@DutchCowgirl Maybe start posting about topics that you would prefer to be discussed rather than criticise those that you don't think are relevant or important. Be the change you want to see and all that. Lead from the front.

I just did! But this topic also is in “Chat” right? So also non-gc or gc-light or whatever you call it is allowed to post here?

Sshhhhh this is not a post about trans people. I don’t want this moved to the other board. Why in a thread about feminism do you bring up trans people? I mean, just because if you can’t define woman, you can’t fight for womens rights, and the fact gender ideology puts the feelings and wishes of males above those of women, and women are being bullied, harassed and threatened for saying no to males…. Nope. We’re not talking about that. This is a thread about feminism, not males.

Sorry posted too soon. @DutchCowgirl who is not safe in mens rooms? I can see why women would not be safe in mens rooms but I can’t see why anyone else would be unsafe. There have been mens rooms around for centuries. Why would anyone be unsafe there?

@DutchCowgirl was not talking about males, she was presumably talking about trans-women that she knows that are ALSO not safe in mens restrooms (obviously depending if there is a horrible man in there!)

Sorry @Happylittlechicken I lowered the tone with my gc chat. As you were.

@DutchCowgirl I did not see your thread before posting on this one.

"But this topic also is in “Chat” right? So also non-gc or gc-light or whatever you call it is allowed to post here?"

Not sure what you are asking about here? This is the Feminism: Chat board. This board was created after a small number of vocal and persistent posters complained endlessly about having to share a board with posters they disagreed with. That board was renamed "Feminism: Sex and Gender" and this board (Feminism: Chat) was created especially for those vocal and persistent posters to use. Any threads here that are about gender ideology or veer into that topic can be reported and moved to the other board. There are no rules about who can post where.

Why would males be unsafe in male spaces, and why is that womens problem anyway? As transwomen are make, why should they feel unsafe in male spaces ? If they do, surely the onus is on males to ensure they do feel safe and welcome? That again is not womens problem, and women should not be asked to give up their hard won spaces so men can feel comfortable. Surely that is the opposite of feminism?

Oh @Iguanothankyoudon i am as I always was 😉

Feminism is about not just creating equality for women but recognising and removing obstacles and disadvantages too.

It only ever centres females and that's ok. There's still much work to be done

I'm out. This kind of shitty, goady chat makes me feel ill. I've hid all this anti-trans nonsense.

Feminism is often angry, unapologetic, rude and will probably always piss someone off.

Many people men do not like this

Umm… what anti trans chat? Seriously. Show me one post that has said anything anti trans… just one.

Feminism isn’t a monolith. There is no one orthodoxy for it. Your question has infinite answers to it.

That’s what I thought it was. But it seems even in a feminist board, I’m told off for not centring males by some posters.

It makes me more sick that a 25 year old man in Scotland when 17 repeatedly raped a 13 year old child and is appealing his fucking community service sentence.

And while this shit is happening to women and girls people tell us off for not indulging men who believe they are women and therefore the most oppressed.

This is why feminism and angry feminists is still so so important.

Indeed. That made me feel actually sick. That poor girl. To go through all that and he gets probation. But yeah. Men are the most oppressed group ever ever 🙄🙄🙄🙄. Nothing can be done if it doesn’t centre men.

Feminism is about women. Without women there is no feminism, no obligation to centre men. It’s really narcissistic to demand women put mens feelings before their own safety and dignity and that feminism must take care of all the sub categories of men.

I guess it’s because we are woman. I listened to the joyce/peterson interview and what really struck me was when Peterson basically said many TRA’s expect women to be the metaphorical all loving all forgiving all accepting mother that babies are supposed to get. We must forgive all and sacrifice all and when we don’t meet that need they have of being soothed and accepted by “mothers” they get angry. maybe thats why they seem so much more angry at women then men a)it’s safer b) we are supposed to be kind and nurturing and we aren’t playing along. It has a ring of truth given the ridiculous amounts of validation some men seem to need specifically from women.

I totally accept that there are TW out there who are just cracking on with their lives, may be perfectly lovely and a bit scared but they still expect women to take on more risk so they can reduce the risk to themselves. That is deeply unfair on women as a population and we are under no obligation to do so. You keep asking women to budge up, eventually we’ll fall off the sofa completely.