‘Why MeToo Fall-out is wrecking the lives of schoolboys’ - Sunday Times share token

[EmmatheStageRat]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ac7c5012-a40e-11ed-9d5c-69bd3c5b98b3?shareToken=db32fb73042c2fea7a10c1ad4c26f19c

It's bizarre to see someone argue the opposite of what I - and my brothers - were all taught by our mother. Outside of an emergency situation where you are able to help, you have no business putting as much as a finger on any part of another person without their permission.

It's not hard. It works for everyone, all the time. And it's easy to remember! My experience is that by following this one weird trick, I've never gone wrong.

The author of that article is clearly seeing herself as "a good sport" and "not like other girls".

I see her as a pathetic "pick-me-girl"

I wonder just how many girls are sitting in their rooms in tears, unable to study, unable to reach their full potential , possibly losing out on their university places………..

If only all their parents could afford to pay eminent psychologists to talk about how being up skirted, catcalled, groped in school corridors, being called slag or lesbian on a daily basis is destroying their self esteem, driving them to self harm, depression and social isolation. Sadly if this was to happen there probably aren’t enough eminent psychologists in the country to deal with the tsunami of girls who have been abused by boys who are just trying to “innocently fumble” their way through adolescence.

This article is distressingly close to the old school rapist’s defence of “she wanted it, she was wearing provocative clothing, she was drunk etc”. Blaming victims is not teaching boys to respect and understand boundaries. And let’s be honest here, adolescent boys living in western society already KNOW what the social boundaries are, they just choose to ignore them, and articles like this justify their choice.

Yes, he should learn that a woman is a person, not just a disembodied 'bosom' there for his entertainment or gratification.

Yep. I would hope this is what most children are taught.

Another quote from the article:
“Since Everyone’s Invited started, 50 per cent of the boys I have seen are either being accused of doing something stupid or worried something will come out. Sex and intimacy are at the top of their poor muddled heads . . . [but] they are not the predators they are being made out to be.”
[My emphasis]

So she’s seeing lots of boys because now, since Everyone’s Invited has started, they’re actually worried they’ll get caught and held to account! I don’t understand how she comes to the conclusion in her last line.

Terrible article, terrible view, terrible woman for writing it. Boys need to be taught to respect women and taught to ask for consent. No debate. Time’s up.

In other news, yesterday, a police officer sentenced to 36 life sentences for rape. A murder suicide of a woman and her small child by a man and a man who thought it wasn't his responsibility to look after his daughter and not neglect her.

These boys will grow up to be these men. I'd far rather it was stopped while they were teens.

I have two boys. I spoke to them yesterday again, about their power as potential men. I said to them, do not rape women, hurt women, belittle women. My husband (who is completely on my side about this) asked me afterwards if I went too far. No! I think it's important to have these very explicit conversations about this. Not inferring expected behaviour. I am crystal clear. Because it matters, it's important. I also asked them to call out all micro aggressions that they might see and be on the right side.

And then this article.

Honestly, it makes me despair.

She seems to be saying that drunken fumblings and sexual activity with girls they aren’t very sure of, can lead to negative consequences and social ostracisation for boys. It probably isn’t easy for some boys to navigate, but girls are expected to cope with this and weigh up the risks. I don’t see why boys shouldn’t take responsibility as well.

I agree with this.

Also, schools and parents need to step up and teach about consent in appropriate and helpful ways which make sense to children and teens.

I'm not saying it is OK by any means, but if boys are not taught about consent and that they need to control these instincts, then they will struggle and it will be confusing.

infuriating article - and, unfortunately, I think it reflects the way a lot of people feel ie that feminism ‘gorn mad’ is ruining the lives of these precious young men. Been thinking a lot about all the crap I put up with as a teen in the 90s and was hoping things were different now that my DC are teens but the attitude that girls should just take responsibility for making sure people don’t assault them and not kick up a fuss when they are assaulted still seems so prevalent. Super depressing

I mostly work with men and I've noticed a positive change, although I still get a serious sexual harassment case about every year and some are still too bold. Men aren't pestering me with questions about my sex life or making sexual innuendos all the time like they used to.
In the past I had a huge problem with men talking about sex and trying to make me to be a part of their conversations and I'd get the sense they wanted to hear a woman talk sexual with them, or they wanted to intimidate me because I come across as a shy, reserved type who gets uncomfortable with "x-rated" talk. I don't get that anymore, thank God.

It's really strange that The Times is pushing this agenda. They had an article from Hadley Freeman pushing the same line ie it's a shame about Armie Hammer and it's a shame for teenage boys. Completely ignoring the rates of assault in schools and the number of boys who are immersed in online incel, negging, hustler academy communities.
Ask any parents of teens and everyone knows the 'boys' who are consistently trying to push boundaries. I'm pretty sure their families would pay for a lawyer and pretend it was all a shock to them and their poor sons - but that denial doesn't make it true.

Why do you think it’s strange? After what John Witherow said about Clare Balding’s “Dyke on a bike” complaint, I don’t think it’s surprising he’d push the idea that girls complaining about sexual harassment by boys is unfair on boys.

Boys need to be taught acceptable behaviour, especially with the onslaught of readily available porn these days. But it is the job of their parents to do this, not the role of teenage girls. Problem is that entitled parents usually breed entitled children.

It's strange because The Times has deliberately cultivated a feminist audience by their coverage of women's rights but these articles are from the MRA playbook. It's also at odds with their coverage of Andrew Tate.

I’m fine with boys being shamed for behaving shamefully.

Has the article been removed? That link leads me to a Times cover page.

No, you can find it with Google.
Perhaps op’s shared token ran out or something… 🤷🏽‍♀️

They haven’t been deliberately cultivating a feminist audience with their coverage of women’s rights. They hardly touch on feminist issues other than the trans issue and they cover that in a way that works equally well for gender critical feminists or men or women who don’t consider themselves feminist.

The most they generally manage other than that is the odd article about harassed middleclass motherhood or the way looking after angling parents makes it hard to get to your holiday cottage every weekend.

Of course there are a few articles about big things that are big media pieces. But they haven’t done anything of significance on domestic violence, the pay gap, the lack of female leadership in the media, etc. They haven’t done anything serious about the sexism within the Tory party (or the Labour Party, but the Tories are “their” party). They aren’t chasing feminists, they use feminism only when it suits their middle-right political agenda.

*aging not angling!

We'll need to agree to disagree.
You obviously haven't read it closely. Lots of feminists switched to The Times. They have covered numerous women's rights matters but tbh even if they had only covered where women's rights are being targeted by TRAs that would still encompass education, academia, sports, health, rape crisis centres, the arts, data gathering, the census, statistics, the justice system, etc. I'm not sure why you're choosing to try to pick an argument when the thread is about one particular article on which we seem to agree.

Good! So they should be ashamed of being sex offenders, and so they should be ostracised. If only that actually happened instead of the girls being called slags and blamed for their own sexual harassment and assault.

I didn’t pick a fight. I pointed out that the editor and the paper has form for similar attitudes. It’s conservative both socially and politically and while there are crossovers with some aspects of feminism, it isn’t a feminist paper, it’s a conservative one. The editorial line here is conservative - Boys have been doing it forever, it’s the natural way of things. So the trauma boys are facing because people want things to change is unfair and we should be worried..

No-one disputed the political leanings of The Times or suggested it was a feminist paper. Cultivating a 'feminist' audience isn't the same as being feminist.