Shocking views of my daughters friends

[germanbight]

Was just speaking to DD20 who said that her Scottish friend (similar age) said that she believes that even if a person doesn’t claim to feel they are the opposite sex, but would just like to live it, they should be able to.

It shocked me quite deeply! This is a woman of voting age, with no consideration for what impact this could have. On the other hand my DD was gender critical before I was, but I didn’t think she was too wildly out of step with most of her peers.

I was wondering today whether, in 40 years we'll have people saying 'well, I was female for a few years in my 20s, then I went back to me. And we'll just nod along.

The emperor- where the feck are his clothes??

Was just speaking to DD20 who said that her Scottish friend (similar age) said that she believes that even if a person doesn’t claim to feel they are the opposite sex, but would just like to live it, they should be able to

define “living it”.

to some extent I agree. If someone wants to wear a dress, make up, heels, call themselves Susan and have long hair then why not.

however they should still be following sex based rights- using male toilets, competing in male sport, not getting jobs, scholarships and awards for females.

if they want me to believe this turns them into an actual woman, nope.

In 40 years people will probably have to have wristbands that light up with their pronouns or whatever is in fashion then

I was wondering today whether, in 40 years we'll have people saying 'well, I was female for a few years in my 20s, then I went back to me. And we'll just nod along.

I actually know a young man who was convinced he was trans, pushing for surgery, but luckily woke up and saved himself before it went too far. He might say 'I was female for a few years in my 20s' if he's not too embarrassed about it.

But he wasn't female. He was practicing being/ playing at being/ pretending to be female. And the fact that he then changed his mind is what lays it all bare.

Unfortunately I've heard a lot of young people say similar things. I think it's a problem with the current shutting down of any sensible discussion about gender and women's rights in the public domain. They truly believe that they are just being kind and taken at face value I can see why. If someone born male wants to dress and act like a woman where's the harm, right? And if they prefer to be called 'her' and have other people call them a woman that's fine too surely? If it makes that person feel more comfortable/happier it must be OK- it's just clothes/make-up and words. If you've accepted that biological sex doesn't matter and someone can change their gender identity to suit their mood (eg a certain middle aged comedian) then this is the logical conclusion.

The problems with safeguarding/women's safe spaces/documenting sex based equality etc etc etc are taboo subjects. Many young people hear all the TRA ideology constantly but never allow themselves to listen to proper CG arguments. They've been taught that listening to the concerns of CG women is akin to taking into account the views of the KKK before deciding whether or not they think racism is OK.

There is no type of personality that is incompatible with having a male body.

You can live as you want without it meaning anyone has to pretend you've changed sex.

Being male or female isn't a set of behaviours. Some things we do are directly linked to our biology, sure, but this isn't "an identity".

Why is this so hard to comprehend?

Ah, I think I worded my original post badly but she meant that they should be able to transition physically/live as the opposite sex.

I totally agree that if (for e.g.) a man wants to live ‘as a woman’ (in the most stereotypical, old fashioned sense of the phrase) then why shouldn’t he? So long as there’s no infringing on women’s spaces.

my feeling is that a lot of them haven't had enough experience of the sexist shit that the older ones of us have had to put up with for years and years, so they think it's lovely and inclusive.

When they realise that the gender pay gap is real, and that some of these transwomen use benefit from male privelige to get higher up the corporate ladder then "change" to be the only woman in the boardroom (and up the quota so it's harder for other women to break in) and so on and so on, they may get our point. It will be too late then, and they will have to live with it

Depends what she actually means by that, and whether she is including being in a womans prison having previously sexually assasulted women with a penis that he still has. Or giving a woman intimate care when she doesnt want a male to do that

Living as it, I think most people think is just walking around in make up and dresses and being all drag race etc. I dont think they think it through to other aspects

The younger generations are generally less likely to be gender critical than boomers and the elderly.

Times are changing.

I don't see what's wrong in it, if someone wants to live their life as an opposite sex to their genetic sex, if that's what they identify as they are.
But then, I'm quite timid, so if a man who identify as a woman who clearly show's man's features came into woman's space, I may feel uneasy. But I've known some trans people and I don't feel uneasy with them at all, if I know them personally. It's difficult, tbh.

I think many if not most of FWR would fall under the "younger" generation, based on that characteristically well-referenced post? Boomer is my parents' generation.

I totally agree that if (for e.g.) a man wants to live ‘as a woman’ (in the most stereotypical, old fashioned sense of the phrase) then why shouldn’t he? So long as there’s no infringing on women’s spaces.

I think most agree. In the small minority of situations where sex matters, it should continue to matter, but in the vast number of situations where it doesn't, fill your boots

The younger generations are generally less likely to be gender critical than boomers and the elderly.

Times are changing.

They are indeed. And the youngest generations aren't going to take this millennial cringe because they see the propaganda for what it is. Good luck with that Overton window.

Hard disagree - my dc think pronouns & obsessing over gender is best left to year 8 (they're all year 10 & up).

It's seen as a mildly annoying/amusing phase that some of their mates went through briefly...& that was at least partially a teacher/parent wind up even then.

Now they're firmly GC. People can dress how they want, people who talk about their 'gender identities' should be treated kindly, but sex is immutable & single sex spaces matter.

Common sense will out, I've found.

The younger generations are generally less likely to be gender critical than boomers and the elderly.

apart from the ageism, i think you'll find a lot of "boomers" were 2nd wave feminism. (I'm Gen X but the same applies) and 2nd wave feminism did a lot of work, some successfully, in destroying (or starting to destroy) gender stereotypes as harmful.

That they're coming back isn't down to boomers.

I don't understand.

If someone born male doesn't claim.to activity be female but prefers to use the clothes, hairstyles and other things that are stereotypically associated with females then there's nothing wrong with that at all surely? Similarly if someone born female doesn't claim.to activity be male but prefers to use the clothes, hairstyles and other things that are stereotypically associated with males.Being ok with this is the very essence of being gender critical, that no one should be bound to observe the sexist stereotypical conventions of their sex, that sex is an immutable fact which is unchanged by feelings, clothes or actions but which does not dictate anything about how a person is supposed to feel, dress or act.

If the above isn't someone's view and they think that the dress, hair and behaviours traditionally associated with women should be reserved for biological females and the dress, hair and behaviours traditionally associated with men should be reserved for biological males then that's not being Gender Critical, that's genuine transphobia.

There's no reason why anyone shouldn't "transistion" if they want to, if they are old enough and sufficiently well-informed of the consequences. I think it would be wise for all hopeful transitioners to be definitely aware that the human brain doesn't stop growing and maturing until the age of 25, and that blocking the hormone flush of puberty can delay some of that maturing process, so a swift transition in late teens having been on puberty blockers for years may turn out to be unwise. it's their body, they can tattoo it, pierce it and lop bits off of it however much they like if done at their own expense (nhs funded operations should be very strictly gate-kept for only those for whom this is the only solution to a serious mental trauma, which is only a tiny fraction of those who identify as trans).

if they don't believe that they are actually the opposite sex and accept that there are some circumstances where it is important to distinguish by sex not gender and at such times anyone who has transitioned remains their birth/genetic sex, then that is totally fine.

I had a similar conversation with a 16yo teen last year. I put it down to her never having needed to have a woman only safe space, such as in a nightclub bathroom. Has lockdown and inexperience of certain situations led to young women's naivety?

Dressing/living as you want is fine and compatible with 2nd wave feminism/being gender critical.
Assuming that all older women are of one mindset and younger women are different is lazy and ageist.
Many women find their attitudes to feminism shifts as they get older and experience more sexism and discrimination. So your young liberal feminist quite often becomes more radical as they get older. Especially when you see what a sham equality is.
The people saying 'what's the harm' literally haven't experienced it yet.

This is what I keep trying to explain to my 14yo. She loves to call me out as transphobic and seems unable to grasp the fact that I'm all for people to wear what they like, call themselves Susan, I really don't give a shit, crack on. Once that progresses into claiming to be a biological female then we have a big problem.

Just wanted to chime in and as some posters have acknowledged it is SOME young peoples view. As a 23 year old though, I can tell you now, it is not all young peoples views. Some of us believe in protecting and strengthening women’s rights. Not making them a laughing stock.

Dressing/living as you want is fine and compatible with 2nd wave feminism/being gender critical.
Assuming that all older women are of one mindset and younger women are different is lazy and ageist.

yep, i really don't understand how people don't get that when we were fighting not to be stereotyped, it would benefit everyone who wanted to colour outside the lines (clothes-wise, job-wise, whatever). Ageism is taking over as the number one thing that is used against feminists of yore. It's so annoying.

Many women find their attitudes to feminism shifts as they get older and experience more sexism and discrimination. So your young liberal feminist quite often becomes more radical as they get older. Especially when you see what a sham equality is.

I always want to print this kind of message on cards and hand them to all the young women moaning about us old nags. "your feminism doesn't apply to me" is their battle cry. Until they have a baby and their employer and partner won't play along with the partner taking parental leave for a year, or whatever. Then they want our help/advice again. Tedious and tiring.