Brighton Feminists and Standing For Women

[cariadlet]

Brighton Women's Liberation Collective have issued a statement in advance of Standing For Women coming to Brighton.

I think that there's room for all different kinds of activism and different campaigners (including those who don't call themselves feminist) have different strengths and attract interest and support from different women.

It's a shame when women focus on what separates us rather than what we have in common.

brightonsisters.wordpress.com/bwlc-statement-on-democratic-dialogue/

[Hindsightin]

I also think the Catholic Churches approach to reproductive control is abhorrent

why is that not be being xenophobic?

could it be that I treat all people the same regardless of the colour of their skin?

[Discovereads]

@Hindsightin

@Discovereads is your head exploding watching the news from Iran?

No, because Iran has been doing that shit since 1979. The media will move on soon, as they always do. I think yet another famine in Somalia is predictably next up on the docket. Anyone who shocked must have lived under a rock or only “cares” when the media tells them it’s Irans turn to be cared about for a few news cycles.

[Hindsightin]

@Discovereads sorry - what do you mean by Iran “doing that shit” - are you criticising the approach to the wearing of hijabs in Iran?

uhoh. I got some bad news for you about yourself…

[Discovereads]

@Hindsightin

@Discovereads and there is a difference between outlawing wearing the hijab and making girls and women wear it.

Iran is showing that the vast majority of women don’t want to wear it when given the choice - so if all or a large majority are wearing it does somewhat suggest that they are being coerced to

U.K. Muslim women and girls wearing a hijab has nothing to do with Iran.
The U.K. is a free society, those who wear it are doing so out of choice.
That is not the case in Iran.

[Discovereads]

@Hindsightin

@Discovereads sorry - what do you mean by Iran “doing that shit” - are you criticising the approach to the wearing of hijabs in Iran?

uhoh. I got some bad news for you about yourself…

By “that shit”, I mean police killing unarmed women. Not sure how objecting to police brutality in any country can be wrong.

[Hindsightin]

So for some reason a majority of the schoolgirls
in the group referred to in the uk were wearing hijabs when in Iran the majority of schoolgirls are demonstrating (at risk of life) that they don’t want to.

if this group of schoolgirls are truly free to make a choice - why do you think there is a discrepancy?

[Hindsightin]

And why are the women in Iran demonstrating @Discovereads ?

[Discovereads]

@Hindsightin

So for some reason a majority of the schoolgirls
in the group referred to in the uk were wearing hijabs when in Iran the majority of schoolgirls are demonstrating (at risk of life) that they don’t want to.

if this group of schoolgirls are truly free to make a choice - why do you think there is a discrepancy?

‘some reason’ would be the neighbourhood being majority Muslim.

“Iran the majority of schoolgirls are demonstrating (at risk of life) that they don’t want to.” It’s not the majority, protests are always a minority representation of a population that do not necessarily reflect the majority view.

“if this group of schoolgirls are truly free to make a choice - why do you think there is a discrepancy?”
There is no discrepancy, there is only your false equivalency.

[Discovereads]

@Hindsightin

And why are the women in Iran demonstrating @Discovereads ?

For womens rights.

[Hindsightin]

@Discovereads and what particular aspect of womens rights that the Iranians regimes interpretation of islam are they focusing on in particular?

[Hindsightin]

So you don’t think that the majority in Iran support womens rights and the protestors are a minority?

[Hindsightin]

Here’s a simple question @Discovereads - do you that men can use the hijab to repress women?

you can think this and believe that women may choose to wear the hijab entirely of their free will.

but the point is that - given that it can be used to repress women and girls - it is not unreasonable to consider whether a woman is choosing to wear it entirely of her free will. For young girls the question of free will is somewhat more fraught.

[picklemewalnuts]

Historically most religions are patriarchal.
Most religions have inadvertently (?) oppressed women.
Christianity has done so. I'm a Christian. I can still see that truth.

Religions can be misogynistic.

Religions can be criticised.

It is the role of feminists to call out misogyny.

[Discovereads]

@Hindsightin

So you don’t think that the majority in Iran support womens rights and the protestors are a minority?

I said that your statement that the majority of women in Iran do not want to wear a hijab and are protesting is a faulty assumption.

[Bosky]

@Discovereads

I said that your statement that the majority of women in Iran do not want to wear a hijab and are protesting is a faulty assumption.

Late to this thread - it has been linked from another one.

Hindsightin did not state, "the majority of women in Iran do not want to wear a hijab and are protesting"

She asked you:
"So you don’t think that the majority in Iran support women's rights and the protestors are a minority?"

What is your answer?

Do you think that the majority of women in Iran do NOT support women's rights?

Do you think that it is ONLY the minority who are protesting who support women's rights?

If "Yes" to both, you seem to be suggesting that in the UK we should therefore discount the protestors, as not being representative of the views of the majority of women in Iran.

Is that correct?

I do not want to misunderstand your position.

[Happylittlechicken]

A lot of woman and girls in the UK do not wear the hijab out of choice, but out of family and societal pressure. Just because something is not enforced by law does not mean that women are making a free choice to do something. I work with Muslim ladies who’s first act when entering the office is to remove the hijab they are pressured to wear by their families and change into more westernised clothes. Our boss supports and help this, and we have a rule that if any of their families show up, they’re warned so they can change. They’re too scared to go against their families openly as they would be shunned.

[WittyWhatNow]

@cariadlet

If you click on the link in their statement, it lists their "concerns" about KJK. It's essentially an attack piece, smearing a woman who has done a huge amount to raise awareness and to empower other women.

The first page is a fair balanced statement that sets out their position clearly without trashing anyone. Very nicely done.

The linked page has a statement of “differences of opinion” and is clear about where the misalignment is. Then it gives examples, without any further comment.

There’s no attack or smearing.

[ArabellaScott]

'We believe the following statements and actions by Kellie Jay Keen are problematic, exclusionary and run counter to the interests of women (and all humans) and to our collective anti-racist, pro-diversity feminist position:'

That's lovely sisterly feminism, that.

Maybe all feminists should start making pages about women they disagree with, listing all the things that they've done that are 'problematic'. It could take up a great deal of our time!

[WittyWhatNow]

That's lovely sisterly feminism, that.

Posie isn’t a feminist. She’s a single issue activist.

[Bosky]

@WittyWhatNow

That's lovely sisterly feminism, that.

Posie isn’t a feminist. She’s a single issue activist.

WittyWhatNow - you also say:

"The linked page has a statement of “differences of opinion” and is clear about where the misalignment is. Then it gives examples, without any further comment."

The "differences of opinion" include "the hijab issue", with Brighton Feminists supporting the notion that KJK was/is Islamophobic for raising this, rather than recognising that "the hijab issue" is a non-trivial aspect of something that Real Feminists™ routinely refer to as "The Patriarchy".

So are the women in Iran protesting against against hijab also "single issue activists"?

"Single issue activists" who should therefore be dismissed by Real Feminists™ because they are, according to Discovereads, an unrepresentative, bolshy minority?

The implication being that they are concerned merely about the "trivia" of enforced dress codes?

The majority of women in Iran presumably shrugging their shoulders with an, "Am I bovvered?" - About women's rights, that is, not just "the hijab issue"?

www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/4634530-brighton-feminists-and-standing-for-women?reply=121715573

[ArabellaScott]

@WittyWhatNow

That's lovely sisterly feminism, that.

Posie isn’t a feminist. She’s a single issue activist.

Right. So the women listing her sins are not required to practise feminism when discussing her? Or do they not call themselves 'feminists'?

[picklemewalnuts]

I don't think the women in Iran should be protesting as they are. I bet some of them think it's ok to work in the home, and others want to work outside the home. It's a poor show, that they'd ally themselves just to protest about wearing a scarf. They should focus on the issues that really matter, and stop undermining their cause allying with random women. Some of them even let men protest too. Awful.


Said no one ever.

[CoraggioCara]

I think that's a balanced statement. There's no smear in linking to the sources themselves.

I have a huge amount of admiration and respect for KJK. I don't agree with everything she says. Same goes for Helen Joyce, Glinner and everyone else.

The Brighton feminists are being pragmatic have decided to distance themselves from KJK's event- that's their prerogative.

I admire all of them and I think that there's a role for all kinds of activism in gender critical feminism. We need comedians, gun slingers, scientists, charismatic speakers, journalists, statisticians, politicians, fundraisers everything. They all have a role.

[WittyWhatNow]

That’s some impressive whataboutery you have going on there Bosky.

Feminist organisations are allowed to distance themselves from those who express opinions that don’t align with the organisation’s values.

The Brighton feminists made a statement to that effect, with specific evidence of the expressed opinions that led to the distancing.

Should they be shut down?
Are you trying to police what women say and silence viewpoints you don’t agree with?

Why should a feminist organisation not make this measured inoffensive statement about a self-declared non feminist single-issue activist speaking in their area?

[Bosky]

@WittyWhatNow

That’s some impressive whataboutery you have going on there Bosky.

Feminist organisations are allowed to distance themselves from those who express opinions that don’t align with the organisation’s values.

The Brighton feminists made a statement to that effect, with specific evidence of the expressed opinions that led to the distancing.

Should they be shut down?
Are you trying to police what women say and silence viewpoints you don’t agree with?

Why should a feminist organisation not make this measured inoffensive statement about a self-declared non feminist single-issue activist speaking in their area?

"Should they be shut down?
Are you trying to police what women say and silence viewpoints you don’t agree with?"

You seem to be confusing me with the Brighton Feminist(s) who repeatedly contacted some of the women who planned to attend the #LetWomenSpeak Brighton Event, pleading and arguing with them that they should boycott the event.

They mentioned it in their speeches and on social media, how the Real Feminists ™ tried to police what they said, silence their viewpoints and sabotage the #LetWomenSpeak event.