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Feminism: chat

Men viewing all women as potential sex workers

74 replies

OtterlyRidiculous · 11/07/2022 00:26

In uni, guys in my class (my choice of optional modules had classes that were sadly even more male-dominated in an already male-dominated course) would blatantly scroll through nudes on Reddit in full view of everyone during the lecture and make 'fuckability' spreadsheets complete with ratings and how much they'd 'pay' for nudes of women from my school.

Employment prospects was an especially hot topic at the height of COVID but anytime a female student posted about her worries in the school-specific sub, her concerns would be dismissed with, 'women can do OnlyFans, I don't see the issue here' or something along those lines.

I'm currently doing my internship at a fairly prestigious firm and at lunch the other day someone was talking about this news article that showed up on his Apple News feed a while back, and the main takeaway he got (others agreed with him) was that the best thing a woman can do for her life 'if she is not stupid' is to open an OF page the day she can and 'milk her youth because it fades fast'.

I'm in a regional programming group on Discord. There's an 'entertainment' section where they discuss movies and content creators on YouTube and when an actress or female content creator turns 18 or when her viewership starts declining (it doesn't matter what content she does) there's always this 'joke' as to when she's going to start selling nudes.

Is this just how women are viewed these days? I am so sick of it and it never seems to fucking stop. In fact, it actually seems to be getting worse as some of the boys in my sister's classes almost seem to believe that it's a given that the girls will at least do OF on the side when they're older! Jesus wept.

OP posts:
Bronwyn7 · 09/08/2022 15:50

This is so depressing. But most of these young men have been brought up with porn. The internet is a gift in many ways, in others ways not so much. And these young men are a product of that. Make sure you don’t date any of them is my advice. You deserve much better.🙄

Ticksallboxes · 09/08/2022 16:24

@allgoodabc makes some really good points.

Also, OnlyFans is basically pornography - it's not just sexy underwear shots. Watch the episode on OnlyFans on Olivia Atwood: Getting Filthy Rich on ITVHub - it's quite shocking.

She interviewed three really successful British people on it and they said that after about six weeks if you're not doing sex acts on demand your followers will go elsewhere. They were making about £150,000 a month on average but it all sounded so grim and isolating.

One of them is so addicted to the money that if she's doing a food shop, she'll pop into the loos in Tesco's to do a sexual act on her mobile if a demand comes through.

Not many women could cope with a lifestyle like that, even if only for a few years, so this idea some men have that every attractive young woman will end up on OF is ridiculously misguided!

Balliol1 · 11/08/2022 23:06

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PermanentTemporary · 12/08/2022 06:38

Great post @Shazanne

As far as it being the Internet that causes this; no, it's men. Sorry. Given that I remember similar stuff being said about 'being a page 3 girl' and Sam Fox being served up to the British public by Murdoch aged 16. Of course he stopped bothering to pay working class girls decent money for it when the market changed and said he'd probably ask 'celebs'. Vile pimp that he is.

OnlyFans is a pyramid scheme. It's just part of the traditional mental landscape where men see women as commodities.

hhh333hhh · 13/08/2022 10:54

@TheWeeDonkey

Well we have a bloke on here comparing bar work to prostitution, so I'd say your conclusion is correct in many cases OP.

One of the problems with expressing an opinion on social media is that some people don't understand how analogy works. If you read the book The Right to Sex by Professor Amia Srinivasan she compares prostitution to abortion. You might ask how can someone can compare these two things but the point that she was trying to make is that if you try to ban prostitution and abortion it doesn't work and you just make things worse.

The point I was making about bar work is that no student would want to do bar work as a career but some might want to do it as a way of financing their way through university. It is the same with escorting or webcam.

All the people that I quote are women, in this thread Dr Petra Boynton and Professor Amia Srinivasan. So these opinions don't belong to just men or just women. It isn't true that women tend to prefer the Nordic model or men tend to prefer decrim.

You might say that in bar work a woman doesn't have to have anal sex. That's a common statement usually expressed more graphically. Sex workers don't usually do anal sex. Rachel Moran didn't have anal sex once during her years as a sex worker.

theclangersarecoming · 13/08/2022 12:05

Oh god not that dreadful right to sex book popping up again. She’s an (overpromoted IMO) colleague of mine and what she definitely isn’t is a social scientist doing any kind of serious quantitative or qualitative research. It’s speculative theory/“philosophy”, not research in the impacts of sex work in practice. It’s also pretty poor “philosophy” in my professional opinion.

theclangersarecoming · 13/08/2022 12:08

Anyone who says in relation to prostitution that “I think it would be a good idea for young women to sit down together, talk about it” (and in a positive light) has a very specific agenda that is entirely unethical.

The other thing that none of you pro-prostitution advocates ever get is that if, as you like to claim, “sex work” is a lovely choicey choicey job just like any other, we are also then fully entitled to judge anyone engaging in it, in the same way that we might judge anyone doing something we consider unethical.

You can’t have both choicey-choicey “sex work is work” and also no stigma. Because like it or not, many of us in society think paying for sex or getting paid or sex is unethical and distasteful. When prostitution is the last resort of desperate women who are forced into it for money or drug addiction and so on, then obviously women caught in are victims, shouldn’t be stigmatised and should be helped to exit it.

If, however, as you want it to be, it’s a fun daring choice for easy cash for lovely pretty students, then damn right we get to judge it and stigmatise it, because it’s doing something, and normalising something, that is at the very root deeply unethical and distasteful, and all purely for money. Because it’s antifeminist and antisocial and hell yes it’s downright wrong. And I’ll judge that the same way I’d judge anyone doing something unethical, illegal or borderline legal just for easy cash - selling vapes, working for a tobacco company, making money off exploited illegal immigrants, running drug farms, dumping sewage, screwing people out of money in boiler rooms, selling fake essays, scams and fraud and exploitation and unscrupulous/illegal business of all sorts.

I personally know at least two families - including children’s and their mother’s lives - destroyed by men’s prostitution addictions: do you think all the men buying sex are single carefree lads? No, it destroys the lives of those men and even more those of women and children who know them. It doesn’t happen in a lovely equal transactional vacuum. What is the wife or girlfriend of that man, or his father or mother, or his kids, meant to think? That it’s all oh-so-empowering to them? That they are second class citizens
because men’s dick rights must always come first?

And hell yes I am entitled to judge those men as harshly as I like: for exploiting women as pieces of meat first of all. And if the women he’s buying are not doing so out of circumstance, but are instead happily going along with normalising “sexwork” as fun and empowering for easy cash, I’m damn well judging them, too, because they should fucking well know better.

Prostitution is not consequence free. Men can’t expect to use prostitutes and other women and girls in the sex industry, and also get to have normal and healthy relationships and families and children, and also pretend that “sex work” is totes fantastic because some ghastly pseudo-media “research” says it’s all so great and “sex positive” and also convince us that we have to go along with it. You know it’s just about as convincing and empowering as Boris Johnson’s arsehole is; and we all know it too. And if you’re the kind of man who likes to pay for sex, you know perfectly well that none of the lovely fantasised student “sexworkers” would touch you with a bargepole if you weren’t paying; and you also know that if you’re the kind of man who pays for sex that no normal well-adjusted woman is going to want you afterwards, too.

Choose your sordid grimy life exploiting women and ruining lives if you will: none of us can stop you. But we won’t make it okay for you to be a disgusting exploitative pig, and also join in the transparently nasty and deeply stupid fantasy that it’s all empowering and positive. It’s disgusting and morally wrong and you fucking know it is. And you can shove your thinly disguised dick rights pandering pseudo-“research” where the sun doesn’t shine as well, because you also know perfectly well that no woman ever has found out that her husband or father (or son) is a punter, and just thought “oh lovely, because “Dr Petra Boynton” says it’s all okay!”

Luredbyapomegranate · 13/08/2022 12:20

I am so sorry OP that is grim

Is there a women’s organisation in your industry? If so I would do that and join the union if there is one and work collectively on change.

everyone’s invited.co.uk is a good organisation for harassment culture in schools. And you and your sister can both report your school.

It is grim right now. I do think it will get better though so don’t loose heart. Also do go meet some older women in your industry, find some mentors, and company situations that might be more female friendly

xJoyfulCalmWisdomx · 13/08/2022 12:27

it is so depressing. Men with low emotional intelligent cannot understand that women ''should'' do what women want. Not what men think they should do. They can't understand that women don't want to capitalise financially on being fuckable. How it feels to be ''fuckable'' is not something they can understand. These men are young, they could go and hang around in public toilet blocks and capitalise on their youth by being rent boys but yet they don't. They choose to study and work. But women are different? Women are just fuckable receptacles?

TheWeeDonkey · 13/08/2022 12:36

It is really depressing isn't it?

I don't think you can really explain to men who get great pleasure from buying sex or see women as purely one dimensional characters how harmful this attitude is towards all women.

YesJess · 13/08/2022 12:45

I'm into powerlifting (elite level deadlifter by female standards) and hence know quite a few meathead type guys - actually some of nicest most genuine people you'd ever meet despite looking a bit scary to the average person.

We went out for some food the other week and one of the guys was telling me about 'gay for pay', which is apparently huge in the intermediate and above bodybuilding circles. Guys make loads more doing this than they get from sponsorship and competition wins. Usually dirty old guys who want to be bearhugged etc. Really opened my eyes.

Overview here: www.strengthfighter.com/gay-for-pay-pro-bodybuilders/

hhh333hhh · 15/08/2022 14:50

@xJoyfulCalmWisdomx

They can't understand that women don't want to capitalise financially on being fuckable.

I don't understand this. Do you not believe that prostitution exists or do you believe that only drug addicts, women threatened with violence or dirt poor would do it. I know that you don't want to do it, but not all women are like you.

The fact that students often choose to do it shows that it isn't true that they are all drug addicts, pimped or dirt poor.

Lots of people can only ever see sex workers as victims or antisocial criminals. Most sex workers are just ordinary women. I shall reply to theclangersarecoming's points later but sex workers are rarely either of these two extremes.

ZitarsLove · 15/08/2022 15:03

“We make no apologies for working to ensure that Durham is a safe environment for all of our students and staff. We are extremely disappointed by the way the intentions for, and content of, this session have been misinterpreted.”
What an arrogant and patronising reply. 😖

ChagSameachDoreen · 15/08/2022 17:08

If sex work were truly work, the health and safety risks would be declared too severe due to the exchange of bodily fluids. It's an occupational health nightmare.

I wonder if, as it becomes more established, there will be a diversity push to include more men.

theclangersarecoming · 15/08/2022 21:31

The fact that students often choose to do it

But they don’t often choose to do it. That’s just a titillating dirty fantasy of yours. These stupid sex work toolkits aren’t actually there to assist a sudden burgeoning of student prostitutes: that’s just your wishful thinking. They’re there are performative virtue signalling by silly student union activists who think it’s super progressive to show how “sex positive” they are by putting out this rubbish.

All this ridiculous, juvenile nonsense, repeatedly boring on about a few media people like Petra Boynton, Brooke Magnamti, et al on thread after thread — it’s so transparently just a dumb-as-rocks perve fantasy about fruity popsies putting out for you for cash. Go bore off elsewhere. (Why aren’t you on the thread about a transwoman trafficking other transwomen into prostitution defending all this stuff there? Because that doesn’t fit the fantasy that gets you off, or do you not think it’s so great if biological men are pressuring other men into “sexwork”?)

hhh333hhh · 17/08/2022 11:11

@theclangersarecoming

I don't believe that addiction to prostitution exists. If you can quote from a reputable psychologist who has evidence for this addiction then I would be prepared to accept it. Addiction occurs with gambling, alcohol, drugs and computer games. I doubt if you consider people who work in these industries as immoral.

Is someone who does bar work immoral? They are making money by feeding other people's addiction. I would say that's one way that prostitution isn't like bar work.

Dr Petra Boynton hasn't said that 'it's all okay'. She has said that prostitutes don't spread disease. She has said that sex workers are responsible about condom use and rarely get STIs. This is proper research, not the 'thinly disguised dick rights pandering pseudo-research' that you say it is.

So when ChagSameachDoreen writes about the 'exchange of bodily fluids' and it being an 'occupational health nightmare' she is wrong.

If it is a fantasy of mine that some students do sex work then it is a fantasy of Libby Purves and Janice Turner too. And the Nordic Model Now! organisation who have been getting very agitated about it. Both Libby Purves and Janice Turner were so agitated that they were willing to risk their professional credibility by stating that there is evidence that prostitution causes rape. There isn't.

I do not defend coercion. I have never said that coercion does not exist. It exists within prostitution just as it exists within many other industries. So it is not surprising that there is a case of a transwoman trafficking other transwomen. Although trafficking doesn't always mean coercion. When people say that we believe all sex workers are 'happy hookers' they know that we don't believe that, so you shouldn't take that seriously.

How much coercion there is in a country depends upon the legal framework. In New Zealand there are fewer and fewer brothels and pimps. According to a New Zealand sex worker "The old brothel system very simply collapsed as the workers found they no longer needed it’s protection. The entire industry paradigm changed. The sex industry in New Zealand is now dominated by independent workers and small worker collectives. Before 2003 there were over 400 hundred brothels and agencies in New Zealand, there are 45 left."

Rinatinabina · 17/08/2022 11:24

Adelishious · 16/07/2022 06:41

How right this is, it is men who are struggling to find partners and sex. It doesn't make sense, some women complain about the patriarchy but on the other hand they want a partner who's competent and in a high up position in the hierarchy. I've never understood this hypocrisy of left wing feminists.

I don’t necessarily think it’s because men aren’t interested in forming relatIonships. It’s possibly because it appears a bunch of men sit in their bedrooms bitching and moaning about chads and staceys. Theres a reason why a lot of women don’t want some men. Some men aren’t having sex because they can’t find anyone willing to come within ten feet of them. And it’s shit like “why don’t you get a job on OF” that does it.

Anniegetyourgun · 18/08/2022 07:12

Adelishious · 16/07/2022 06:41

How right this is, it is men who are struggling to find partners and sex. It doesn't make sense, some women complain about the patriarchy but on the other hand they want a partner who's competent and in a high up position in the hierarchy. I've never understood this hypocrisy of left wing feminists.

I don't follow your argument. I would expect that any man who is competent, intelligent and ambitious would be able to reach a good level of earnings and responsibility without the extra leg up that the patriarchy provides them. As a mother of four sons I strongly believe that men can, in fact, make it on their own merits, and hopefully find a life partner on a similar wavelength. No hypocrisy here.

TheWeeDonkey · 18/08/2022 12:40

trafficking doesn't always mean coercion

Sorry, you're gonna have to explain that statement to me.

TheLeadbetterLife · 18/08/2022 12:46

TruthHertz · 11/07/2022 19:16

Where the hell are you studying where most men are like this? Defo not the norm.

Isn't it? It's pretty much how Facebook got started.

Most women have no idea how disgusting men are.

TheWeeDonkey · 18/08/2022 12:48

Anniegetyourgun · 18/08/2022 07:12

I don't follow your argument. I would expect that any man who is competent, intelligent and ambitious would be able to reach a good level of earnings and responsibility without the extra leg up that the patriarchy provides them. As a mother of four sons I strongly believe that men can, in fact, make it on their own merits, and hopefully find a life partner on a similar wavelength. No hypocrisy here.

That's incel talk Annie , you've raised your sons like I have raised mine to be personable, competent young men who are able to maintain friendships and relationships with women regardless of their financial and physical prowess.

However, unfortunately there is a group of online "gurus" and "leaders" who've realised there is great financial reward in gaslighting and intimidating vulnerable boys and young men into believing they'll never achieve social or romantic success.

Its evil and its cruel, the epitome of toxic masculinity, but these young men are brainwashed to punch down and believe that it is women not their own insecurity that is the cause of all their woes.

It depresses me that so many potentially happy young men are being lead down this route, but I fear it will get worse before it gets better.

YouAreNotBatman · 18/08/2022 14:42

@TheWeeDonkey

You feel sorry for men for watching porn / using sex workers?

Really?

TheWeeDonkey · 18/08/2022 16:50

YouAreNotBatman · 18/08/2022 14:42

@TheWeeDonkey

You feel sorry for men for watching porn / using sex workers?

Really?

No, I feel sorry for teenagers and young men who've got sucked into a rabbit hole of believing all women want tall muscular rich men who they can never compete with.

Take five minutes on TikTok or Reddit for example and the sites are full of them.

Insecure and bitter young men who have developed such a hatred towards women that they will never have successful relationships.

I don't think that's an excuse for them, not at all, but I think it explains the mindset of some of the posters on this thread.

TheWeeDonkey · 18/08/2022 16:52

YouAreNotBatman · 18/08/2022 14:42

@TheWeeDonkey

You feel sorry for men for watching porn / using sex workers?

Really?

Sorry I was replying to Annies response to Adelicious but I'm on my phone so it hasn't translated very well

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