Roe bs Wade

[Mumsnut]

Has been overturned

In that scenario (no service available in the immediate local area) women are signposted to the places where services are provided. Every health authority region must provide these services. They doo not appear to have difficulty staffing them. And then of course there is parallel private provision.

I suspect you are not a poster from any part of the UK as you seem unfamiliar with the systems here.

"I also don't think abortion benefits the most vulnerable of women in our society the way people think, it's not something that most people find easy to do or to deal with after and nowadays a mother can give a child up at birth anonymously so having to raise the child alone or in poverty just isn't a good enouog reason for justification" - then let me suggest, Adelishious, that you are not thinking enough...

Women and girls are not traumatised by abortion, and in most of the UK they are quick to access, as they should be. Especially with the continuation of the telemedicine service. The majority response to abortion is relief, and there is no correlation to any mental health difficulties as a result. To suggest otherwise is inaccurate scaremongering.

You say that "a mother can give a child up at birth anonymously" - there is no mechanism for this in the UK. There is in the US though, in all states I think. And of course, talking so glibly about the mother giving a baby up at birth ignores the very real risk to the health and life of the mother from going through pregnancy and birth. It also ignores the fact that handing a baby over to the care of the state doesn't mean it will be adopted as a baby or even at all. A situation that will worsen if more unwanted babies are born.

only concern then would be how many of those may feel obligated to conduct an abortion who would otherwise see it is immoral, but at least no one is being forced under threat of instant dismissal.

Why would they feel obligated to conduct an abortion? I had a surgical abortion carried out at a BPAS clinic. If the Dr and nurses had an issue with abortions, they surely just wouldn't work there? If they aren't comfortable performing abortions, they can simply not work at a clinic providing abortions, just go into any other field of medicine.
GPs are allowed to not refer you (I think), but I referred myself anyway, you don't actually need to see your GP. And if your GP refuses to refer you, you can just see a different one.

It was the best decision the Supreme Court has ever made I AM so proud of our Supreme Court

You are 100 %right

Imagine really believing that your life begins at conception. All those millions of miscarriages that happen every year, they must have to mourn every one. Should they conduct a funeral for each? No wonder it’s made them incapable of rational thought.

Abortion is immoral to you @Adelishious, but it is not immoral to me.

So why should your morals dictate my life, my body and my choices?

I don’t rank human life above other forms of life. I think (know) humans are animals, therefore there is no hypocrisy in my stance.

I love animals (as I love many humans). I am not cruel to them, but - I eat meat. I swat flies and insects. I view an *unwanted^ zygote / blastocyst / foetus in exactly the same way I view animals raised for meat, or a sandfly that’s just bitten me.

You - and others like you - have no right to force your beliefs and morals onto me.

You abstain from having an abortion - nobody is forcing you to have one.

And you keep your nose out of my private business.

I had an abortion at 6 weeks. I was in my late 30s with 2 teenage children. I had a coil in situ but had realised it it had moved and subsequently fell out. When I found out I was pregnant I feel into deep despair. I couldn’t get out of bed. I simply did not want another baby. Even in the uk you have to explain how it would effect you mentally or physically for the dr to agree rather than I simply don’t want a baby. This left me racked with guilt and the feeling of selfishness which I felt awful for weeks after. Years down the line I do not regret that decision. I just didn’t want to go through the financial hardship and mental and physical stress of another baby after that part of my life had passed. I cannot imagine being forced to have continued the pregnancy and mentally I’m not sure how I would have pulled myself out of that hole. If people don’t agree with it fine but don’t impinge your beliefs on others. I hope the women of America are given the support they need.

@RenegadeMatron
You cannot claim that there is no difference in your value structure between humans and animals, and in the next sentence say "oh but I eat animals".

That is a giant difference in value between the two. I'm assuming you don't see humans as meat to feed your belly?

This is the pertinent part of @RenegadeMatron 's post:

"Abortion is immoral to you Adelishious, but it is not immoral to me.
So why should your morals dictate my life, my body and my choices?"

Rather than ignore that and question her on her stance on cannibalism, perhaps stick to the thread topic and respond to her points about different beliefs and abortion.

And I don't think my beliefs should dictate people's lives they are simply my beliefs. But I'll always speak up against what I see as wrong. If someone was killing kittens in their garage I would speak up and say that's wrong.

Well, killing kittens in a garage would be an offence in all parts of UK, just as procuring an abortion other than in line with the relevant laws is.

it is not an offence for either action if carried out in accordance with the law (eg kittens put down by a vet, TOP carried out under terms of the 1967 Act (most of UK, separate rules for NI))

I’m sorry - what has eating got to do with anything? Of course I don’t eat humans.

I am talking about snuffing out ‘life’, not eating anything I kill. [confuse] Why do you need to deliberately muddy the waters? It is because you do not have an actual response to what I said.

I do not value an unwanted embryo above or below an insect, or an animal I would eat.

I am not hypocritical. Either you value life - in which case you should eat an entirely plant-based diet, and go out of your way to avoid killing anything - or you pick and choose which lives are important and you place an irrational value on those lives over others.

That’s fine. But do not force your belief system onto me. And all so-called pro-life (not pro women’s lives) people DO want to force their belief systems on others.

No. My body is none of your business.

@RenegadeMatron
So, please excuse the gory notion, but would you also be OK if a women waited until before birth to slip a knife into the baby's skull prior to it actually exiting her?
I'm assuming there must be a definative point in time that you do actually view a human life as valuable as presumably you would agree that even if it is not wanted, then killing a 3 month old infant is wrong and immoral?

@RoseAndRose
My views on morality are my own and have no bearing on what the law is at the time. It was legal until recently to imprison the mentally ill and give forced electro-therapy for example, some countries put them to death. I don't think that was ever moral just because it was legal.
I think this is a trap that many people fall into into believing that because abortion is a recognised and organised, legal procedure then that means it must also be one that is moral. Personally I don't think the manner in which it is done makes any difference. In a way the fact that its considered a medical procedure is enough for some to blind them enough to the fact that the action is still the killing of the baby due to its inconvenience at the time.

Your thinking is very binary, Adelishious. People who are mentally ill can still be detained against their will in certain circumstances. And given treatment. Would you say that it is immoral to section someone who is about to harm themselves or others and then give them medication to help them?

No thats obviously an important avenue to take in those circumstances. My point was that legality doesn't equal morality. Mentally ill jews could be legally executed in Germany half a century ago, it doesn't take long to find some fairly heneious actions that have at some point been legal

So, please excuse the gory notion, but would you also be OK if a women waited until before birth to slip a knife into the baby's skull prior to it actually exiting her?

Why would I be OK with that?

You realise women don’t purposely wait until an unwanted baby is nearly full term, and then decide to ‘murder’ it in some sort of Shakespearean, duel-at-dawn fashion? Why are you making up some bizarre unrealistic scenario?

The vast majority of abortions are carried out in the first trimester.

Late abortions are almost always because of severe abnormality or incompatibility with life, and are usually much wanted pregnancies, causing devastation and trauma.

Abortion should be as early as possible and as late as necessary. In other words, entirely up to the woman having it.

Nothing to do with me, and certainly nothing to do with you.

Do you want to trot out some other ridiculous scenario for me to swat back at you?

The ruling doesn't make sense. If they really wanted to improve things for women and their children they should have been heavily promoting and improving access to family planning and ensuring men and women both have means to prevent pregnancy in the first place.

Have they done this? Have they jack.

The ruling does make sense - it is nothing to do with preserving ‘life’ and absolutely everything to do with controlling women and keeping them oppressed. Given the latter is the sole aim, it makes absolute sense.

There's no evidence that any ruling is to oppress women, as no women are oppressed by it. Many women believe abortion is wrong, and as many on here see fit to do as early as possible, then so do they deep down.

it might make people think twice about the repercussions of sex outside of stable relationships.

im in a stable relationship. I also probably have a good 20 childbearing years left. Who’s gonna tell my husband we aren’t having sex for 20 years? 😬😩

it’s such a stupid argument. Like the only people who have abortions are those not in stable relationships. A lot are women who are married and don’t want anymore kids.

I see you're back talking utter twaddle again Adelishious...

Of course there is ‘no evidence’ when you don’t want to see it.

Are you suggesting that we don't mourn our miscarriages? I really hope that you are not minimising the impact, that would really piss me off. There's no need for that in this argument

Not personally no, as this is about what other people feel and decide about their bodies isn’t it? I’ve had both a natural miscarriage and an abortion. Of course most women will feel sad about a miscarriage of a wanted pregnancy. I am suggesting that religious society (the ones who are trying to stop abortion) doesn’t view miscarriage, as a ‘death’ otherwise we would be having funerals every other second, according to their religion. Their ideological arguments don’t make any sense if it’s purely that life begins at conception. They don’t honour life before birth with the same treatment whatsoever. Look at the treatment (or lack of) that pregnant women get in the USA during and after pregnancy. It’s completely staggering that they have pushed for this change in the constitution based on religion (it’s not about religion at all) of all the changes they could have chosen to campaign for (if they didn’t hate women). Abortion is a fact of life. It happens in nature ALL the time. It’s not some heinous new thing that needs to be stamped out. Under English common law abortion was legal for 100s of years, and many religions don’t actually teach that life begins at conception.