Uvalde

[flygirl1983]

I live less than 2 hours from there, which is nothing in Texas. There are already reports about the perpetrator hating women and threatening rape. I also read an account of a girl who survived that was too afraid of men now that she couldn't be interviewed by the male reporter. I don't blame her one bit. The problem here is guns but it's also the men that use them.

amp.cnn.com/cnn/videos/us/2022/05/27/uvalde-survivor-miah-cerrillo-nora-neus-newday-vpx-new.cnn

I needed to say something. He's being called an incel now by some. I don't actually care what he's called. I just wish that men have to inflict violence, which they don't, they aim at other men. No one talks about the fact that I'm every school shooting here, which are all done by males, the victims are children and the adults are women.

I apologize fir the typos. It's late here.

I just wish that men have to inflict violence, which they don't, they aim at other men.

What a stupid thing to say.

I get you are emotional, and rightly so.

The situation is horrific - horrific that an unstable 18 yo can access a deadly weapon with ease, and also horrific that a young male sees murdering in Ive r children & their teachers as some solution.

Simplifying it to 'incel' ideology & 'male violence' is not useful.

Simplifying it to 'incel' ideology & 'male violence' is not useful.

Ignoring the fact that there is a pattern with these atrocities is not useful either.

That's not what I'm saying.

There is a pattern, but not necessarily linked to one kind of disaffected male.

The unfettered access to deadly weaponry might be a good first place to start, before addressing the instability of young males who perpetrate the crimes, generally.

A few weeks ago, a mass shooting occurred in Buffalo, killing (I think?) 10 black people. That had racial nor

I understand the temptation to go down the incel route, but I worry it detracts from the main message of guns being the problem. There are incels worldwide, there is make violence worldwide but countries who don't have civilian gun access don't have school shootings.

Sorry ...

Racial motivation at its core.

There have now been more mass shootings in the US than days in the year. That's the sobering point that needs attention, without trying to pathologise one particular type of perpetrator.

Yes, you said it better than me. Of course we need to continue to work on racism or male violence but using those as reasons for the shooting is playing right into the gun lobby's hands, muddying the waters, confusing the easiest to solve problem. Which is guns.

Guns are the reason that so many people die in US mass shootings, but when you analyse who the perpetrators are, besides being overwhelmingly male, a very high proportion have a record of violence and/or abuse against women and girls, or an incel-like social media history. This is regardless of the victims they actually kill (although there is often a pattern of shooting a female they know first), or even the ideology they claim. The same applies to terrorists. The man who drove a truck through people attending 14th July celebrations in Nice had a history of domestic violence. If society took VAWG more seriously, we would root out these people earlier.

It's probably not a stretch that anyone capable of mass violence & terrorism will have some evidence of violence in their past.

Of course addressing disaffection in particular groupings of men is relevant.

But there are wider issues (in this case, in the US) around the legitimising of gun use and violence. That's the meaningful starting point.

I repeat: more mass shootings than days in the US in 2022

With regards to male violence that is driven by misogyny, when I look at the gender balance of the victims on these school shootings it stands out to me that there are sometimes more female fatalities among the children and that the media never picks up on this. Does anyone else notice this?

It really stands out to me as the mother of a girl.

it stands out to me that there are sometimes more female fatalities among the children and that the media never picks up on this. Does anyone else notice this?

No and honestly, I think this is offensive

That killer entered a classroom with assault weapons & many rounds of bullets. You don't need to imagine the horrific scene, where little boys and girls were murdered so violently. The nature of the weaponry means that such acts of discretion are just not possible.

There is much to be says about male violence against women & girls.

But not in relation to little children, boys and girls, in a school shooting.

Everything about school shootings is offensive. It was not my intention to offend.

I would agree that guns are the main issue here. I also feel that gun culture is tied up with toxic masculinity and male violence in some way.

What the shootings in Uvalde and Buffalo have in common is the complete 'othering' of the targets and the underlying malevolence toward the victims.

Behind that is a sense of entitlement. White people who hate black people feel entitled to a position in society they feel is being taken by black people. Incels feel entitled to the bodies of women and feel disrespected when women refuse them sex. In both cases, these men feel they are not getting what they are entitled to from people who are beneath their status and how dare those sub humans be so uppity. 'Do they not know who I am?'

Add guns to the wounded machismo and entitlement and you're off to the races. The same thing could happen elsewhere. There's plenty of racism and misogyny elsewhere in the world.

Schools are chosen for these rampages because they are environments where women are in charge.

Women dominate elementary educational environments in the US. They are teachers and principals of schools. They are in charge of the classrooms.

The hate filled adults who enter schools with mass murder in mind are entering environments they identify with domination by women.

In the case of students carrying weapons to school and gunning down other students there can be similar motives to those of incels or racists - desire for revenge, inability to cope with a reality that doesn't match fantasies of popularity or power or recognition of greatness.

Where's your evidence for this?

I'm not saying it may not be true in part but generalising about the mental state & thought process of these killers is not helpful, and unlikely to be accurate.

There's absolutely evidence for some school shootings that these were places of isolation, bullying and rejection for the killers & they were exacting revenge.

Wildly generalising isn't appropriate here

There's absolutely a place for examination of these disaffected youths. But start with taking away access to the deadly weaponry.

The problem here is guns but it's also the men that use them.

Nah, the problem is guns, especially assault weapons.

So, they choose schools because women are in charge? That’s some mental gymnastics there to claim that women are the real targets when it’s children being killed by the dozen. And if women were the “real” target, wouldn’t a beauty salon be a better place to chose?

It's not wild generalisation. Mass shootings are frequent. There have been 22 school shootings in the US so far this year alone, and many, many more thwarted attempts. Only one shooting has made the international news.
The FBI has had the opportunity to do extensive profiling of shooters.

In the case of students in a school, the following factors constitute a profile -
Intrusion of preoccupation with violence into schoolwork, into conversation, offhand comments, assignments, jokes, SM.
Low tolerance for frustration.
Poor coping skills.
Lack of resilience.
Inability to cope with rejection or perceived rejection.
Ruminates over 'injustices' he has suffered.
Undiagnosed depression giving rise to extreme emotions.
Narcissism.
Others are dehumanised.
Alienation, a feeling of being different.
Lack of empathy.
Feeling of entitlement.
Attitude of superiority.
Pathological need for attention.
Externalises blame.
Masks low self esteem.
Anger management problems.
Intolerance/prejudice, racism, misogyny, prudishness, bigotry.
Inappropriate humour/belittling, insulting, mean.
Manipulative.
Low level of trust in others/suspicious of others.
Closed social group/echo chamber.
Behaviour is confrontational, reckless.
Rigid and opinionated/mansplains, disregards facts, reasoning against his opinions.
Unusual interest/preoccupation with sensational violence and incidents of this.
Fascination with violence in media/online.
Negative role models.
Student falls down rabbit hole of preparations for violent act.
Families tend to circle the wagons around the student when school communicates about problems despite often being dysfunctional or not showing signs of really valuing family members.

In the case of adult shooters (loosely defined as people over 18), the FBI has developed the following demographic profile -
White male.
Aged 18-29 or 40-49.
High school education or dropped out of university/college, or attended trade school.
Single (no current or previous long lasting relationship) or divorced/separated.
Not necessarily complete loners or socially isolated. Many lived with family/extended family.

Context -
Preparation - most prepare well in advance, leave evidence of intentions which is later discovered (SM, writings, trail of websites visited).
Gun purchased legally or already legally owned.
Stressors that the shooter does not cope with. (See all the school student problems in responding to various stressors).
Mental health problems. Mood disorders, anxiety disorders, personality disorders, psychotic disorders have been diagnosed in shooters before they committed their crimes. Most do not have a diagnosis until assessed afterwards.
Others noted worrying speech or written communication on the part of the shooter at least but mostly more than a week in advance of the shooting.

Personal observations after the fact, from friends, family, co-workers, with the majority of observations dating more than six months before the attack, four or five behaviours observed in each shooter -
Possible mental health issues.
Intrusive remarks and clear preoccupation with violence, grievance, stressed - mentioned to others.
Quality of thinking/communication. Not logical, refusal to see sense.
Anger. Quick temper.
Abuse, harassment, bullying.
Physical aggression.
Risk taking.
Firearm behaviour. Preoccupation, recklessness, glorification of guns.
Violent media use.
Weight/eating. Changes to norm.
Drug abuse.
Impulsivity.
Alcohol abuse.
Physical health.
Fascination with violent role models, or criminals, or organisations, e.g. SS, or martial spirit.
Sexual behaviour.
Domestic abuse, stalking.
Sleep quality/hygiene/appearance.

Personal grievances and personality problems are topped up with strong feelings on political topics in cases where a shooter has a clear racial or sex-based motive.

Yes, access to guns is the crux of the problem.
Such is the culture and political climate of the United States that nobody is ever going to enact comprehensive gun control.

Only thirteen states have laws allowing police to remove a gun from the possession of an individual determined to pose a threat to public safety.

Plus, the FBI has observed that moat shooters do not have an extensive recorded criminal history when they head out to buy the weapon they are gong to use in the attack. Running a criminal background check is therefore not going to flag anything.

A problem with the FBI stats is that domestic violence is vastly underreported and rarely prosecuted, leaving no record. Many families normalise a level of verbal, emotional, psychological, and even physical abuse, and minimise the threat a shooter poses to their safety, even though more than half of shooters kill a family member as the initiation of their spree.

The problem with flagging mental health issues is that individuals who end up firing indiscriminately into a school or supermarket or workplace are people who have never seen a MH HCP. The MH issues become apparent in the violence itself and when family and friends put clues together, and when the individual is interviewed by police and assessed.

So, they choose schools because women are in charge? That’s some mental gymnastics there to claim that women are the real targets when it’s children being killed by the dozen. And if women were the “real” target, wouldn’t a beauty salon be a better place to chose?

Schools are locations where the shooter has personally spent time under the control of women. Beauty parlours are not.

Schools are also the place where the shooter has spent time collecting grievances against other children, where he may have suffered various slights or perceived insults from other children in his youth.

So they are targeted along with the women who run the intolerably female-run environment.

Shooters are often looking for revenge. They are ruminators. They have very thin skins.

@mathanxiety

Read your own post about the profiling - it lists a range of reasons for these youths' disaffection. Stop trying to simplify it.

The reasons are multi-faceted. The reasons for death and maiming are the availability of lethal weapons with utter ease: 2 AR platform rifles & 375 rounds of ammunition.

375. And no questions asked.

Shooters are often looking for revenge. They are ruminators. They have very thin skins.

Well, yes. This seems evident.

But that's the point. School is often a place where they experienced isolation & built up resentment. It's not necessarily targeted at women. It's an easy location to cause a lot of pain & destruction.

It's children, male & female, from tiny children to teenagers, who predominantly die in schools, along with their teachers.

Children gather in many locations in the US. Parks, playgrounds, beaches, summer camps, public swimming pools, soccer tournaments, etc, etc.

In fact, many of the above locations would be easier targets to hit than schools - no security to mess with - and easy for a shooter to get away from, if shooting children were the primary aim. For example, if someone wanted to kill hundreds of children, the outdoor public pool a few hundred yards from my home was heaving last Monnday afternoon, a sweltering day, and opening day for the summer swimming season. It's at the corner of two main streets, and there's a train station nearby, plus an expressway.

But because killing children and the women who teach them and dominate the school environment are the primary aims - and I would go so far as to say the insult to the school itself is another aim - schools are targeted. They are the places where the shooters have direct personal experience of being under the control of women and possibly of having their 'greatness' go unappreciated as children.

I'm not arguing that guns are not the problem. Of course they are, and the macho and misogynistic culture that goes with them.

There is a difference between occasion and cause.

Occasion includes availability of guns and endless rounds of ammo.

Cause is everything the FBI looks out for. Cause is not the guns themselves, though the culture around them contributes.

You've supplied no evidence for killers' thought processes that you seem to understand & are able to homogenise 🙄